The ‘Experiential Reality’ Beneath the ‘Language Game Illusion’
Introduction: Behaviours can be ‘situationally animated’ and they can be ‘language animated’. When we get together to try to understand ‘the world dynamic’, we do so using synthetic realities constructed with ‘words-as-subjects’ to depict the ‘animating agencies’. In the above graphic, situation animated dynamics ‘actually’ shape the boundaries of ‘states’. But once we have a ‘name’ for the state, we can use that word, as if it were a real ‘thing-in-itself’; i.e. as the fixed subject of predicative behaviour. ‘Subject animated dynamics’ are clearly not the same as ‘situation animated dynamics’. The problems that arise when we put our psycho-LOGICAL view of the former into an unnatural precedence over our experience of the latter are increasingly manifest in today’s society.
The globally dominating culture, call it ‘Western’ or ‘colonizer’ or whatever, portrays our life experience by way of a ‘language game’ wherein we substitute ‘subject animated dynamics’ for ‘situation animated dynamics’. One is not allowed to call attention to the fact that we are ‘playing this game’, and if we do, we break the rules of the game, and we are punished for it.
The policing is not by some group of control-seeking conspirators but ‘by ourselves’, by practice embodied in the fabric of culture;
“… where Chimpanzees were sprayed with ice-water [which they hate] every time they touched a distinctive red ladder placed in their cage. The chimps quickly learned to police one another so that there would be no climbing by anyone on that ladder. There was soon no longer any need to spray the ice-water since their mutual policing was so effective. When newcomers joined the group, they were quickly trained not to touch the red ladder, and when the entire group was replaced, one after the other, with new residents who had never experienced the spraying of ice-water in association with touching the red ladder, the entirely new group continued to police themselves so that they did not climb on it. Learning ‘good behaviour’ was by way of revelation of what the group held to be ‘good behaviour’.”
The ‘language game’ for which the ‘policing’ is embodied in the fabric of our culture has been described by Nietzsche as follows; We observe/experience a dynamic unfolding, a brilliant light in the sky or a violent swirling of wind and clouds, or a dynamic form that is physically like ourselves. Though our experience informs us that these dynamic forms that continually out-well and in-well, are like ‘ripples’ in the energized medium of the space we live in, a space that persists as these things come and go within it, we begin the language game by giving these things ‘names’; e.g. ‘lightning’, ‘hurricane’, ‘man’ etc. and making these words ‘subjects’ that become their own sources of action; ‘lightning flashes’, ‘hurricanes blow/destroy’, ‘man does such-and-such’. We make these ‘words’ into ‘doers of deeds’, even though our experience informs us that these forms are transient developments in the energy-charged medium that we live in.
We let our understanding slip, without excuse or justification, from ‘things considered in themselves’ [Dinge an sich selbst betrachtet] to ‘things in themselves’ [Dinge an sich]. Our subjectivity, the subjectivity of the observer/experience is what juridically/logically endows these ripples in the spatial-plenum with local objects/organisms/system ‘being’ status, which prepares them for our notionally equipping them with their own local, internal sourcing powers for developing form, behaviour and collective organizing. Thus it is our own ‘subjectivity’ that re-renders the world dynamic in ‘inside-outward asserting’ terms by means of a language game, even though every aspect of our life experience informs us that we live in a continually evolving space wherein outside-inward orchestrating influence predominates over inside-outward asserting influence; i.e. the flow predominates over the ripples that continually develop within the flow and that participate in its transformation [the ripples are the agents of transformation of the flow they are inclusions in]. As Mach’s principle of space-matter relativity says; “The dynamics of the flow condition the dynamics of ripples at the same time as the dynamics of the ripples are conditioning the dynamics of the flow.”
The language game will take a life experience such as where the occupants of a boat that springs a leak start frantically bailing out the inflowing water, a ‘situation-animated dynamic’ wherein the occupants are participants in the transformation of spatial relations, and re-cast it in language-game terms of ‘what people do’ as if their actions are entirely inside-outward asserting, sourced by knowledge, intellection and purpose. We say that the ultimate source of inside-outward asserting people-action is the ‘survival instinct’. The language game falls back on this a lot, and even ‘explains’ evolution (inside-outward genetic development) as being powered by ‘survival instinct’ [ignoring the outside-inward epigenetic influence].
Scientists who openly opine that epigenetics [outside-inward orchestrating of the formative dynamic] predominates over genetics [inside-outward asserting of the formative dynamic] break the subject-predicate rules of the language game and are ‘expelled’ from their profession, or else they learn to ‘keep their mouths shut’ and obediently observe the rules of the language game. As the psychiatrist-philosopher Ronald Laing put it;
They are playing a game. They are playing at not
playing a game. If I show them I see they are, I
shall break the rules and they will punish me.
I must play their game, of not seeing I see the game.
Politicians and economists play the same language game as scientists. The Polish are a ‘proud people’, so be careful when telling ‘Polish jokes’. But who are the ‘Polish?’. If one reviews the ‘boundary game’ that goes hand in hand with the ‘language game’ we see that Poland’s borders have transformed under the epigenetic influence of the political collective in which it is included. Yet the language game treats the Poles as a ‘subject’ that one can associate predicative action to; ‘The Poles expanded their boundaries, the Poles had to pull back their boundaries. So who are the Poles? According to Wikipedia;
“The Polish people, or Poles are a nation indigenous to Poland.”
That’s interesting, ‘the Poles are circularly defined as the people who live in Poland’, …particularly in view of the oscillating borders of Poland. But Wikipedia continues;
“The preamble to the Constitution of the Republic of Poland defines the Polish nation as comprising all the citizens of Poland.”
This second definition is a juridical/logical one. If you have your Polish citizenship papers, you are a Pole.
If the ‘authorities’ give you this name, that is what ‘you really are’! … according to the language game. The Pole who has just got his U.S. citizenship is not only going to punch you out for telling Polish jokes, he is going to kick your ass for burning an American flag.
Economists will calculate you a GDP for Poland regardless of its borders that will inform you as to whether the Poles are superior or inferior ‘producers’. They merely have to plug the new border information into their database and re-gather the economic data on that basis. They will give you the GDP for Kosovo the day after it is juridically/logically decreed an ‘independent state called Kosovo’. A week later, economic experts will sit beside the politicians and ratify the proposed economic programs to improve the Kosovan GDP as if it were an inside-outward determined result, rather than seeing the region as an inclusion within an evolutionary unfolding wherein outside-inward orchestrating influence [epigenetics] predominates over inside-outward asserting [genetic] influence.
Theologians are also members of the language-game club. They tell us that once a man has a name and is thus a ‘being’ [one of God’s ‘creations’], he has ‘his own inside-outward asserting behaviour’ and since he ‘has his own behaviour’, and is fully and solely responsible for it [in denial of the real world of our experience where human behaviours are situationally animated and where we are participants in the relational transformation of the living space we all share inclusion in], he can be judged as to the moral goodness or badness of his behaviour. But as Chuang Tzu observed;
Teaching love and duty
provides a fitting language
with which to prove that robbery
is really for the general good.
A poor man must swing,
for stealing a belt buckle,
But if a rich man steals a whole state
He is acclaimed as statesman of the year.
Of course we don’t have ‘our own behaviour’, except in the world of language games where we use the subject-predicate doer-deed constructs based on word-names as a basis for re-rendering the spatial relational dynamics of our experience, in the synthetic terms of visual form-animated dynamics wherein we picture ourselves as navigators in a dynamic space where the dynamics are due to named-forms like ourselves that act/interact sequentially [‘in time’] in an absolute, fixed, ‘operating theatre’; i.e. in a fixed reference-frame or x,y,z Euclidian space. [essentially, we use the language game to remove the spatial-relational character of the space of our real-life experience and substitute a fixed and empty operating theatre box filled with local named beings that are imagined to be the first cause source of the world dynamic]
The language game only works in Euclidian space where things can exist ‘absolutely’ as ‘local beings’. In a relational space such as the one we experience living in; i.e. in the space on the surface of the earth, there is only spatial-relational ‘becoming’ and there are no persisting ‘identities’ [in our natural, pre-lingual experience]. Our dynamics are animated by the spatial-relational situations that unfold [that we participate in unfolding]; i.e. we participate in transforming the common living space we share inclusion in.
Sure, the European colonizers can speak in language game-‘what named-things do’ terms, and claim that they are the authors of the genesis of a wonderful new world/civilization in the Americas while the colonized indigenous peoples can speak in language game-‘what named-things do’ terms, and claim that the colonizers are the authors of the degeneration and destruction of a wonderful established civilization on Turtle Island. This leads to the usual irreconcilable difference in language game world views. Of course a video-camera on Mars focused on the earth would see all earth activity as being included with a continuing spatial-relational transformation. When the colonizers said they ‘moved from ‘Europe’ to ‘America’’, … without the language game artefacts ‘Europe’ and ‘America’ to anchor the movement and present it in terms of absolute motion, it would be seen as part of a rearranging of the overall spatial relations in the space on the surface of the sphere of the earth, the only sort of motion (spatial-relational rearranging/transformation) that is possible in such a [spherical] space.
Therefore, while the reality of our experience is of the transforming spatial relations that we share inclusion in; i.e. the colonizer notion of ‘genetic authorship’, of growth and construction and the colonized peoples notion of ‘degenerative authorship’, of collapse and destruction, are flip sides of the one ‘real dynamic of our experience’; i.e. transformation of the space in which we share inclusion. As Nietzsche puts it;
“And do you know what “the world” is to me? Shall I show it to you in my mirror? This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end; a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise without increase or income … This world is the will to power–and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power–and nothing besides!” –Nietzsche, ‘The Will to Power’, 1067
And as McLuhan said, it matters little what name we attach to the factory we plunk down into the town, ‘Cadillac’ or ‘Cornflakes’, what matters is how our relations with one and other and the habitat are transforming. And generation after generation of flickering picture-shows of human families rising up and collapsing ‘in place’ give history to the same place in terms of its transformation. We are that transforming place that we are living and experiencing in.
Now, another sponsor of language game play, along with Scientists, Politicians, Economists and Theologians is the ‘Romantic’. The ‘Romantic’, like the theologian, wants to ‘reconnect’ the ‘named subject’ with the real world he/she/it was synthetically split out from. The ‘Romantic’ wants to reverse the ratcheted sequence from ‘Ding an sich selbst betrachtet’ to ‘Ding an sich’, but without ‘dropping the name’. The ‘Romantic’ notionally infuses a ‘heart’ and ‘soul’ into the named subject to restore its ‘connection’ with the unfolding spatial ‘All’, so that the named entity can be seen as a channel that the universe is acting through. This is akin to an attempt to acknowledge that hurricane Katrina is a ripple in the spatial flow-plenum without abandoning the power of the word ‘Katrina’ in notionally attributing local, internal sourcing powers [first-cause creative authorship powers] to Katrina. The internal organs of ‘heart’ and ‘soul’ become notional channels through which the powers of the universe find expression through the named subject. This preserves the language game’s salient characteristic, namely, that all action in the universe is inside-outward asserting, even though every aspect of our experience screams out that outside-inward orchestrating predominates over inside-outward asserting influence [i.e. while ‘epigenetics’ and ‘genetics’ are flip sides of the one spatial-relational dynamic, ‘epigenetics’ predominates over ‘genetics’ as in any fluid, field-flow dynamic].
It is a degenerate form of understanding to say that the frantic bailing actions of the occupants of the boat derive, on a first cause basis, from their internal processes of intellection and purpose (their so-called ‘survival instinct’ mocked by Nietzsche). They may not feel their lives threatened at all. They may want to keep their clothes dry. They are evidently participants in situationally animated dynamics; … they are participants in transforming the spatial relations they are situationally included in. Like the people of the deer [Nenets] when the herd moves, they move, in order to sustain balance and harmony in their conjugate habitat-inhabitant relations. It is only the language game that allows us to re-render these spatial-relational dynamics in a manner that notionally points to the sourcing of the dynamics as originating in the interior of the named ‘form’ that we have, using the language game, ‘broken out’ of the spatial relational dynamic continuum.
The language game is totally screwing us up. The economists are looking silly and so are the politicians. They continue to stick with the language game and with the belief [based on juridical/logical declarations] that nations and corporations are subjects with predicative authoring capacities, a ‘total Fiktion’ as Nietzsche would say [a ‘useful fiction’ if not confused for reality]. The theologians continue to claim that each person is a local subject with full and sole responsibility for predicative action, and thus is governable by moral code and conscience, even though the Chuang Tzu observation has generally been on the rise; i.e. that “A poor man must swing, for stealing a belt buckle, But if a rich man steals a whole state He is acclaimed as statesman of the year.”
The Romantics, who ignore that the source of the dysfunction lies in the language game, preserve the named subject and argue that we must develop more loving hearts and more soulful souls as an antidote to the ‘self-otherness disconnect’ between the named entities and the space they share inclusion in. My take is the same as R.D. Laing’s;
They are all playing a game. They are all playing at not
playing a game. If I show them I see they are, I
shall break the rules and they will punish me.
I must play their game, of not seeing I see the game.
And no, I don’t presume I’m the only one. Nietzsche said it very plainly, and so did Poincaré and it has probably occurred to most of us. Poincaré seems to have originated the term ‘language game’ and confounded his colleagues and the public by saying that the proposition ‘the earth rotates’ is nonsense. His point, first made in ‘Science and Hypothesis’ and after the confusion it caused, explained again in Science and Method’, is that ‘the earth’ is the name we give to a dynamic phenomenon within a larger dynamic phenomenon, thus it is not the first cause ‘subject/author’ of its own behaviour. His point is the same as Nietzsche’s where Nietzsche used the example ‘lightning flashes’.
“Our judgement has us conclude that] every change must have an author”;–but this conclusion is already mythology: it separates that which effects from the effecting. If I say “lightning flashes,” I have posited the flash once as an activity and a second time as a subject, and thus added to the event a being that is not one with the event but is rather fixed, “is” and does not “become.”–To regard an event as an “effecting,” and this as being, that is the double error, or interpretation, of which we are guilty.” – Nietzsche, ‘Will to Power’, 531
Wittgenstein also pointed out that our logical propositions are ‘language games’. The ‘nouns’ we use in language, as the basis for our logical propositions, enjoy ‘absolute being’, something alien to our experience, but only within the language game realm.
No-one, not Poincaré, Nietzsche or I, are saying that this language game is not useful or that it has not helped us achieve amazing things in the realm of technology. It has given us the Cadillac and Cornflake factories and much more, but as our focus has turned to ‘what things do’, treating these ‘names’ such as the Cadillac factory [or ‘Poland’ etc.] as first-cause authors of their products, we lose sight of the fact that we and the factory are included in a spatial-relationally transforming common living space. This space is the ur-author of both ourselves and the Cadillac factory, so that merely putting a name on ourselves and the factory is not sufficient to magically convert us into the first-cause creative ‘subject/authors’ of ‘our own behaviour’. But that is what we do with the ‘language game’ and then we re-render the world dynamics in terms of ‘named things’ and ‘what they do’; i.e. the Polish nation, and we report on this in the media as if it were ‘the real world’, when it is ‘maya’ [Vedics], ‘schaumkommen’ [Schroedinger], ‘Fiction’ [Nietzsche].
If we believe in the ‘independent existence’ of the Polish nation/state or any other named state or named being, we may as well believe in faeries (in good faeries and in daemons).
But who will be the first to expose ‘the Emperor’s New Clothes’ in this case? Nietzsche made a good attempt and the jury is still out. That is, his ideas are so outrageous when viewed by most of us, we-all who have been indoctrinated into belief in the language game. So that while these outrageous ideas tickle our experiential understanding, inviting it to return to its natural precedence over ‘maya’, the ‘illusion’ constituted by the language game reality, we are at the same time confounded by the fact that this requires us to go against the bulk of what is commonly understood and accepted in our culture.
The language game [not the game itself but our confusing its ‘illusion of reality’ for ‘reality’] is proving toxic to our collective health and there seems to be a natural self-correction underway. People are no longer paying as much attention to what politicians and economists have to say, and neither are they paying that much attention to theologians, who seem as confused and without answers as everyone else; i.e. the theologians advocate the same things as always. In spite of the rejection of language based advice and the desire to re-tune to situation-animated dynamics where we are participants in transforming spatial relations in our shared living space, we remain addicted to the language game through our addiction/dependence on ‘money’. ‘Money’ is the currency of the language game and its ‘what things do’ illusion. Money is the predicate of the subjective authorship of product. Money is needed to buy Cornflakes and Cadillacs and to ‘keep the global economy healthy’.
If we fly around the world, we see villages nesting in oases, in green valleys, in sheltered ports. Our video-camera on Mars would have recorded the climate induced migration of green areas and the Okies in hot pursuit, and in general, the evolution of these communities in terms of ‘situation-animated dynamics’, like the bailing of the occupants of the leaking boat, wherein ‘epigenetics’ [outside-inward orchestrating influence] predominates over ‘genetics’ [inside-outward asserting influence] though the two are flip sides of one dynamic; i.e. spatial-relational ‘in place’ transformation. Certainly, the imposing of names and the power of subject/author status the forms we ‘name’ gives us the psychological ‘traction’ to re-render these dynamics ‘one-sidedly’ in the inside-outward asserting terms of a subjectively authored ‘genesis’, so long as we can suspend or ‘temporarily forget about’ the more comprehensive understanding of these dynamics as in-place spatial-relational transformation. There is the problem that the growth and genetic constructions of thousand of generations of human inhabitants ‘just doesn’t add up’ as seen on our Mars video-camera. Apparently, all of this production and construction is ‘not real’ and what is going on is captured in Nietzsche’s description, as ‘in-place’ relational transformation;
“This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end; a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise without increase or income”
To sell our services for money is to become slaves of the language game which perceives ‘production’ as ‘real’, rather than as a rearrangement of things in spatial-relational terms [as it would be understood by Mach’s principle, in the relative space, or non-euclidian space, rather than as in absolute space of the language game]. Insofar as ‘production’, ‘what things do’, or ‘what we do’, animates our social dynamic, we remove ourselves from the ‘situation animated dynamics’ of pre-technological society, the dynamics of naturally evolving communities wherein we understood ourselves as participants in spatial-relational ‘in-place’ transformation. I would like to say ‘pre-lingual’ society here, but its not a question of ‘before we played the language game’, it is a question of whether or not we put the ‘language game-reality’ in precedence over the reality of our situational experience. We didn’t do this ‘early on’ and we still wouldn’t do it if we were a group that was ‘marooned’ in the ‘wilderness’ [i.e. subject to normal life experience once again]; i.e. our language games would be secondary support while we responded to the outside-inward orchestrating influences of nature.
But of course, once we swear an oath of allegiance to the Polish nation or whatever, we are committing to putting a language-game based organizational system in precedence over the outside-inward orchestrating influences that elicit our local situational responses. In other words, our societal organizing structures embody the upside-down precedence of the language game reality over the situationally animated dynamics of our experience, and this becomes the ‘new normality’. As R.D. Laing also observed;
“What we call ‘normal’ is a product of repression, denial, splitting, projection, introjection and other forms of destructive action on experience.”
So, right now we are in the position of having made ourselves dependent on the ‘blood’ that sustains the life of the language game culture; i.e. ‘money’, the ‘currency’ of the ‘what things do’ illusion that we confuse for reality. The economists tell us that continuing growth is important for us to be able to sustain the way of living that we have become accustomed to, but the video camera on Mars is showing us that ‘growth’ is and illusion. Our actions are, in reality, participating in a continuing ‘in place’ transformation of our common living space. Thousands of generations of ‘production’ and ‘construction’ have not ‘added up’, genesis and degeneration are flip sides of a single ‘real’ dynamic, in-place [spatial-relational] transformation, like Mach and Nietzsche and Poincaré have suggested.
Evidently, we of the colonizer culture can convert to the belief system of the colonized peoples which was not afflicted by ‘language game’-zombification. The ‘decolonization’ initiatives patiently sustained by aboriginal traditionalists appear to be coming into a growth phase [‘growth’ means that more of the people ‘in this place’ are undergoing conversion]. The ‘decolonizing’ initiatives [arguably present in the ‘Arab Spring’ and ‘Occupy’ metapulse] include the globalizing of the Zapatista ‘man belongs to the land’, ‘evolutionary ethic’ [it is more evolutionary than revolutionary]. These movements, which are really in-place transformations of world view, that are supplanting the inverted ‘the land belongs to man’ ethics of the language game based colonizer culture, represent a ‘demoting’ of the ‘language-game illusion-reality’ to a support role, where it should be. Putting the land first, simply suspends the artificial ‘subject/authoring powers that come with the language game; i.e. it re-embraces as ‘primary’ the situation animated dynamics of our experience wherein we understand that we are participants in the in-place transformation of our living space.
No, we are not local, independent, material organisms/systems with our own locally originating, internal process driven and directed development of form [Darwinism/genetics] and behaviour [Neuroscience], as the subject-predicate grammar of the language game, hyped by scientists, politicians, economists, theologians and romantics have been telling us is the case. We are, as our experience has been continually informing us, spatial situation animated participants in the in-place transformation of our shared living space.
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Bonjour,
Je suis tombé par hasard sur votre blog, et j’ai beaucoup apprécié votre article sur le langage. Je m’intéresse depuis plusieurs années au langage/conscience, et de l’impact de ce dernier sur la perception que nous avons de nous même et du ‘monde’.
J’ai fait quelques commentaires au fur et à mesure que je lisais votre article et j’aimerais bien les partager avec vous. Je les ais écrits en anglais pour vous en faciliter la lecture. Si vous le voulez, j’aimerais bien que l’on échange sur ce sujet.
merci,
alain
When we describe a situation, what this or that situation is, it seems to me that it is also resting on language. What is a situation? If not once more how ‘things in-itself’ relate to other things in themselves? Situations are also language animated, but the emphasis is now more on the relations themselves then on the subjects(animated self will object) or objects (non-animated, without will).
Emphasis is the key; Aristotle logic is the logic of either this or that, either it is subject/object animated or it is situation/relation animated. In our ‘mind’ and because of Aristotle logic, it is either one or the other. What I am suggesting is that both have equal value and validity within their own respective context/perspective/way of seeing, beyond which they mean absolutely nothing at all. Somehow, there are no situations outside of language, in the very same way that there are no objects outside of language. The shift you are ‘asking for’, is a shift in emphasis, it is not a matter of either this or that, but of emphasis of one over the other one. What I feel is require is to go beyond both. To ‘awaken’ the ‘mind’ in such a way as it rest upon nothing at all, no parts/subject (as object with will)/objects, no relations or situations.
Words reveal, no doubt about that, but there are no things being revealed. When this is understood clearly, the revealing aspect of words/language find its ‘natural place/space’; emphasis is now on the revealing (verb) aspect of language, much less so on a ‘what is being reveal’ (nouns), situations or things.
No doubt language profiles a view of the ‘world’; what we look from is what we look at, and vice versa, what we look at is what we look from. What we look from is what we call our subjectivity, and what we look at being our objectivity. The whole thing is simply a question of emphasis, on whether we emphasize on what we look from or at. But there are no subjectivity or objectivity for what you look from is what you look at and what you look at is what you look from as process. What we look at always gathers with what we look from and vice versa, what we look from always gathers with what we look at. Aristotle logic pushes us to make a choice, a choice between what we look from or what we look at, but that choice is language base; language makes us think that there are ‘things in themselves’, structures, substances. And so whatever we think implicitly contains the seed of an impossibility; the impossibility of an irreconcilable duality as substances in the midst of unity as process or dynamism. The basic or fundamental knot, is one of a pure impossibility; Unity as process/dynamism, and a duality as structures/substances.
Do you look from? Can you look at? This is twoness, duality as substances. But that same twoness is also process; what we look from is what we look at. What we look from profile a view (what we look at) of the world, and of ourselves. What we look from is what we look at as process is simply what we call experience; my mode of being is my mode of knowing; my knowing is my being, and my being is my knowing. A cat being is its own knowing, my being is my own knowing. What I look from is a within trend, what we look at being a without trend, these two trends are complementary and antagonistic (within/without), and because of language, these trends have crystallized into nouns, words, all words are similar to a crystallization process, water becoming ice, thus becoming substances, call it whatever you want, a self and a world, a knowing substances and a being or material substances, etc. Within this language base view/viewpoint, kind of a gap has emerged, a gap between frozen trends; an irreconcilable duality. What makes this whole thing impossible, is that even within this duality, whatever you will look from or look at, whatever the view/viewpoint, perspective, as process whatever you will look at will forever gather with what you look from. A Muslim worldview is its own view and viewpoint, my own view is my own viewpoint, and vice versa, my viewpoint is my view.
We make these ‘words’ into ‘doers of deeds’, even though our experience informs us that these forms are transient developments in the energy-charged medium that we live in. Who is within our viewpoint/view the doer? Isn’t it ‘I’? This ‘I’, a thing in itself whose sole purpose is itself. This sense of being unique, special, important, distinct; me first! I can, I know, I have self will and I can control, act upon. That I am is quite different then what I am. What I am requires language, it is not the case with that I am. That I am ‘is’, and it is indescribable, without boundaries and limitations. What I am is context related. The surrendering of self will and the belief that we are under control can bring a profound change within some ‘person’.
Why do we have all of those ‘fix reference frame’? For example do we live in time or is time living in us? 4:28am, December 28, 2011, isn’t time a referent as we look for what time it is? We look for to look from a set of cultural referent, kind of gestalt set, but look at a specific aspect of those same referent. Individuals which lose their referent, as with people having Alzheimer disease, become dysfunctional. Referents have more or less validity and value within some context, mostly for functional purpose, beyond which, they actually mean nothing at all. The root of it all is extremely complex, and to some extend it is not possible to make a description of what is actually happening. For me, only Human being are conscious, for consciousness requires language, I am not saying that animals are not aware, they are aware, even plants are aware to some extent, they are aware as. Animals are aware as and aware of, consciousness has evolved from this awareness of. With animals, they are aware as and aware of, but this of, is not of something, furthermore it is flowing, moving, changing. In Human being this mode of awareness of, has evolved; to speak, is to specifically specify a specificity, focus, focus, focus, aware of aware of aware of. There is kind of iteration to human consciousness, a fractal like process. Language is a process of focalization, and tends to crystallized into fix forms; a word. There is nothing wrong in this process, in this ability to focalized and make distinction, for this process is highly creative and allow tremendous discovery; in brief, words reveal. The problem is when we dissociate the process of revealing with the word that we have created to express the enthusiasm of our discovery. With words, we abstract, we grab (or get the impression of having grasp). The whole thing is process, a focusing process, and words ‘allow us’ to abstract, to pull out or away from what we look at and integrated “it’ into what we look from. We split apart the revealing with the revealed; words reveal, but there are no things being reveal. Words are exclusive units which came out of a revealing highly creative process. Consciousness dynamism is dual, looking from wholes (situations, relations, inclusive ones) looking at parts (fix frame, specificity, exclusives ones) and I do agree that we tend to emphasize the part much more than the relations.
We are local and non-local, both observer and participant, alternatively one (exclusive one trend) and one (inclusive one trend). As trends we are more or less two, more or less one, as process, dynamism, all is one. Because of language, these trends have become substances, things, the more or less two or one has became two irreconcilable opposites opposing, within one single unified dynamism; a complete impossibility, what I call the fundamental knot! The universe is filled with opposition but is without opposites. The very word dynamism, implies twoness, ‘dy’ meaning two. (une diade)
Experiences, consciousness/language are buffer, shock absorber to what cannot be known, talk about, to an impossible upstream. Life is the answer to this impossibility. Life itself being an impossibility is permanently looking for to joyfully transcend itself, to creatively renew itself.
bonjour alain,
merci pour votre commentaire. je trouve que notre manière de comprendre ‘les choses’ est très similaire. et, parce qu’il parait que votre facilité en anglais est plus efficace que mon facilité en français, je vais continuer en anglais;
firstly, there is a lot that i agree with in your statement, and from my experience, the understanding we have in common places our viewpoint well outside the popular norm of more or less accepting as ‘reality’, language based constructions.
secondly, given that we both seem to be homing in on a ‘different understanding’ of the world and self that is currently ‘mainstream’, i can see what appears to be some significant differences between us in ‘how we do our modeling’; i.e.
1. what is a ‘situation’.
you say; . “What is a situation? If not once more how ‘things in-itself’ relate to other things in themselves? “
and i don’t agree with this ‘reduction’ of ‘situation’ to ‘things’ as the basis for ‘relations’. the idea of a ‘holodynamic’ is where there are only relations as in a fluid dynamic without any persisting, identifiable ‘lumps’ in the flow. we experience this in the flow of traffic where it is the ‘shape of the holes’ that open and close that orchestrates our movements. in this mode of experiencing, we cannot ‘anchor’ to any, as you say, ‘referent’ or ‘reference frame because everything is in flux. only when we impose an absolute space reference frame on our ‘viewing’ do we reduce our ‘situation’ to ‘how things-in-themselves’ relate to other things in themselves. in a relational space, which we are fully capable of experiencing, the only way we can conceive of ‘form’ is via ‘spatial relations’. the spatial relations take priority as they do when we are observing clouds; i.e. there is an inherent ambiguity between ‘figure’ and ‘ground’ so that what we observe is the transforming ‘gestalt’. the figure ground relationships are continually transforming but without dependence on an persisting ‘things-in-themselves’. this is the ‘ripples in the spatial-planum’ general nature of the universe as in relativity and quantum physics; i.e. the ‘situation’ that we experience has no dependency on ‘things’.
so, neither do i agree with you where you say; “Somehow, there are no situations outside of language,”
2. i am not asking for a ‘shift in emphasis’, but rather an acknowledgement of the mediocrity of ‘truth’.
you say; “ The shift you are ‘asking for’, is a shift in emphasis, it is not a matter of either this or that, but of emphasis of one over the other one.”
‘emphasis’ sounds very arbitrary to me. what i intend is what nietzsche intends when he says that there are no ‘truths’ and that when we use language we fabricate ‘mediocre truths’ (logical truths or ‘reasoned’ truths). we build this into our institutions such as ‘justice’; ‘did you do it or did you not?’ the judge is not going to accept ‘yes, i stole the loaf of bread but it was because i could no longer bear hearing the cries of starving children as they were put to bed hungry’.’ jean valjean was saying that his behaviour was not internally sourced but was sourced by the dynamics of the living space he was situationally included in, which was being ‘conditioned’ by everyone in it including the judge.
so, like nietzsche, my view is that we need to acknowledge the mediocrity of the ‘truths’ that we construct using language. these truths are a synthetic reduction of our experience.
the mediocre truth of doer-deed is a ‘Fiktion’ which does not agree with the reality of our experience. that is jean valjean’s complaint. he is saying; ‘wait a minute, judge, … you are insisting that my behaviour is born inside of me and i am telling you that my behaviour is induced by the dynamics of the situation i find myself included in, we can’t both be ‘right’… your ‘truth’ is a mediocre truth which fails to accord with the reality of our experience, though it is certainly a ‘convenient truth’ for yourself and others who are wealthy and well-fed.
3. the nature of the observer/experient
you say; “Who is within our viewpoint/view the doer? Isn’t it ‘I’?”
yes, but is this ‘i’ not something ‘less’ than our situational experience? for example, what is an ‘identity crisis’? does this not suggest that our ‘i’ is something that we precipitate by our ‘reasoning’ [Nietzsche claims that ‘reason’ is what is screwing us up, and i agree]. for example, in the wars between the colonizers and the colonized indigenous people, there were ‘turncoats’ where individuals ‘changed sides’. the colonizers had the viewpoints that they were constructing a wonderful new world in america while the colonized indigenous peoples had the viewpoint that the colonizers were destroying a wonderful established world on turtle island. that the person within this viewpoint could ‘flip’ suggests that the ‘i’ is not something fundamental. but experience is fundamental and both colonizer and colonized shared the experience of living in a common space that was undergoing transformation. where they differed was in their viewpoints; i.e. the colonizers [executioners in the terms used by Camus and Zinn] saw their slaughter of indigenous peoples [victims] as a necessary ‘site preparation’ for their construction projects, like cleaning up a dump and killing the rats while the indigenous peoples saw the colonizers construction of settlements as ‘desecration’ of sacred spaces inhabited by their ancestors. while their viewpoints are irreconcilable, their experience was in common; i.e. ‘genesis’ and ‘degeneration’, or ‘construction’ and ‘destruction’ are dual aspects of one dynamic; i.e. ‘transformation of spatial-relations’. the turncoat indian was capable of seeing both viewpoints and one might say that he would be in an ‘identity crisis’ prior to flipping or reverting [perhaps he loved a white woman]. this suggests that the ‘i’ is not ‘absolute’.
you say; “Individuals which lose their referent, as with people having Alzheimer disease, become dysfunctional.” but what about people like the turncoat who consciously swap our their referent? just as kidnapped whites were brought up as indians and kidnapped indians were brought up as whites, and they would both grow up to have strong sense of ‘i’, it would seem that the ‘i’ is not something ‘fundamental’. the native learning circle is where each person ‘speaks from the heart’ and the listeners seek to experience the ‘i’ of each speaker so as to soften their own ‘i’ and to move closer to an ‘aperspectival’ understanding, to be the senses of the living space, to dissolve the ‘i’ and ‘become one with the all’.
4. the nature of consciousness.
you say; “Human being are conscious, for consciousness requires language”
schroedinger says; “The multiplicity of consciousnesses is only apparent, there is only one mind.” .. “consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular.”
the colonizer and the colonized indigenous people are conscious of living in the same world, otherwise ‘there would not be a problem’. the same goes for the grizzly bear and the wolf.
in other words, the sort of consciousness that comes with ‘language’ is a ‘reduction in consciousness’ brought on by ‘reason’; i.e. the imposing of ‘mediocre truths’ as discussed above.
“Reason” is the cause of our falsification of the testimony of the senses. Insofar as the senses show becoming, passing away, and change, they do not lie. But Heraclitus will remain eternally right with his assertion that being is an empty fiction. The “apparent” world is the only one: the “true” world is merely added by a lie. –Nietzsche, ‘Twilight of the Idols’
but you seem to be speaking of a ‘language-enhanced consciousness’ while i/nietzsche would suggest that language facilitates a ‘dumbing down’ of consciousness that puts us into a world of ‘illusion’ or ‘maya’ which we take to be a ‘more true’ reality than the reality of our experience; i.e. you say; . “In Human being this mode of awareness of, has evolved”, implying that humans are a ‘more evolved’ form of ‘animal’. such a suggestion is non-sense if one first assumes that we are all related (interdependent as in an ecosystem); i.e. such a suggestion rests dependently on the notion of the human as an ‘independent thing’ that undergoes ‘its own evolution’.
such a comparison is of ‘one thing with another’ and takes us out of an understanding such as ‘Mitakuye oyasin’ (‘we are all related’). in other words, in order for you to talk about consciousness as something special that humans have evolved, you take ‘humans’ out of the evolutionary flow and impute to them ‘their own evolution’. if so, this is to depart from the basic view of Lamarck and Nietzsche and opt for the view of Darwin and Spencer.
5. the etymology of ‘dynamic’
you say; “The very word dynamism, implies twoness, ‘dy’ meaning two. (une diade)”
in a fluid dynamic, there is no ‘two-sided-ness’. a ripple spreads out in all directions at the same time and only if one ‘takes a tangent’ to the ‘wave front’ can one reduce the infinite dimensionality of fluid dynamics to the synthetic duo of ‘linear force’ and ‘opposing resistance’. the ripple is constituted by a simultaneous outside-inward in-flux and inside-outward out-flux that seeks always to restore balance/harmony. the ripple is thus a ‘conjugate relation’ rather than a case of ‘opposition’. the notion of opposites is where each seeks to overcome the other, which is a very different notion from ‘restoring balance’.
and the etymology of ‘dynamism’ is not rooted in ‘twoness’; i.e.
dyna-, dyn-, dynamo-, -dyne, -dynamia, -dynamic (Greek: power, strength, force, mightiness).
thermal field imbalances in the flow of the atmosphere orchestrate the formation of tropical storms, often multiple contemporaneous storms (convection cells in a common flow) all of which live out their lives in the service of restoring balance and harmony in the energy flow-field. only when we ‘single them out’ do we fabricate ‘two-ness’ in terms of the notion of THEIR assertive movement that ‘overcomes’ the resistance of the surrounding ‘otherness’.
* * *
conclusion: as mentioned, it seems to me as if our ‘pre-lingual understanding’ is very much in common, but how we ‘model’ and ‘articulate’ it is rather different. i would say that you prefer to keep the modeling in an absolute space reference frame, while i prefer to render it in a relational space frame.
Bonjour Ted,
Yes, we do seem to agree on many ‘things’, and let us say, have divergent view/viewpoint on other. The first ‘thing’ we seem to agree with is the impact of language, but on what? On reality? On truth? What is truth? What is reality? We could go even further and simply ask what is? We could even question this question by asking what does what is mean; what is what is, what does it mean, what does this question ask for? Now, if right from the beginning nothing is, then do any of those questions make any sense? Does it make sense even to ask those questions? And from there, can we talk, speak, think and write in terms of a higher, lower, mediocre truth or reality? Can truth and reality be measure, compare, judge, ‘ratio-nalize’?
We wake up to the dream (language based constructions), not away from ‘it’.
Viewpoint is view, view is viewpoint; this is how I see the impact of language. And see within this what I call a knot, a twist. Our viewpoint profile a view, but our view also profile a viewpoint. You see, for me there isn’t such a thing as an independent and separate viewpoint or view, furthermore the view ‘we get’ isn’t of the world, for there is no world to be view. I do not experience the real, reality and truth transcends experiences. Experiencing and dreams are one and the same.
The idea of a ‘holodynamic’ is where there are only relations as in a fluid dynamic without any persisting, identifiable ‘lumps’ in the flow. This is interesting, I have never heard of holodynamic, and do understand fully what you are saying, very similar to ‘Peter on this stone you will build my church’ and ‘ Alain on this moving sand will you build all understanding’ just to make sure that eventually all lumps will dissolve.
I do understand what you are saying ‘we cannot anchor….. referent, referent frame, absolute space, etc. And tend to agree with you that this can be the source of many ‘problems’, that is why I say that our referents have relative value and validity within a context, beyond which, our referent mean nothing at all. (But I am not judging them, nor do I find them being mediocre) Just try to imagine what a world without those referents would be, one could not anchor, everything would be flux, change, movement, ungraspable, chaotic to some extent, once more, think about those person having Alzheimer. The question is not one or the other, either with or without referent, but an understanding of those referents and the limited value and validity of those referents and the very same with relation space. You talk of relation space and of spatial relation, and say the spatial relations take priority… this is what I mean by emphasize, we over emphasize spatial relation and under emphasize relation space. Both for me have equal value and validity. You know, I had a lot of problems for many years with kind of scaling ‘ways of seeing’, for I just could not accept that two mutually incompatible ‘ways of seeing’ could have equal value and validity. I always thought that there was such a thing as a better way of seeing, and with all honesty that my ways of seeing was a superior way. One day it hit me, the point of view/view that I have has equal value to the point of view/view of someone else, even if these two points of view/view are mutually incompatible. For example; The point of view/view that says that Canada is real and that it is something has equal value with the point of view/view that says that Canada actually means nothing at all, or that it is similar to the concept of ‘proto-concept’ emphasizing what you call relation space, the ongoingness, the fluidity, etc. Nation as a set of fix boundaries, and nation as culture, this culture that no one can really grab, for it is always moving, always changing. Maybe we could say that spatial relation implies relation space, and that when one is actual the other is potential, and vice versa. Although mutually incompatible, maybe both have equal value and validity. In the very same way that the wave (viewpoint/view) and the particle (viewpoint/view) although mutually incompatible, have equal value and validity.
“Somehow, there are no situations outside of language,” I still think that it is so, I do make a distinction between ‘that it is’, and ‘what it is’, That it is, is what is, but you cannot talk about it, or even say what it is, to say what it is, is to describe what it is or to attempt at a description, and any description or situations requires implicitly or explicitly some kind of boundaries (I know you won’t like this word), all requires viewpoint/view, without boundaries, nothing can be said, well no, maybe we can say something truly meaningful; Oh how wonderful !
i am not asking for a ‘shift in emphasis’, but rather an acknowledgement of the mediocrity of ‘truth’. What is truth? Maybe truth is similar to a well without end in which we would throw a flat stone, going deeper and deeper into its darkness. The closer you are to the surface of the well, the more ‘light’ there is, but the less depth there is.
…. nietzsche intends when he says that there are no ‘truths’ and that when we use language we fabricate ‘mediocre truths’ (logical truths or ‘reasoned’ truths). One day if you want, we could talk about ‘truth’, but for me, truth is something alive, truth is ongoing, the unfolding of a flowing meaningful, purposeful, gathering vista.
In Hugo, les misérables, both Jean Valjean and the judge were ‘right’, both have equal value and status, although they were mutually incompatibles viewpoints/views. In this is the drama of human existence.
Thanks for the colonizers/colonized and the ‘turncoat’ example, it is a very good example, because here we ‘have’ two viewpoint/view (sorry if I always put these two together, but there is no view without viewpoint, and no viewpoint without view), and then the turncoat, he must have been in permanent state of shock. The shock did not come from the lost of his referents, much more with the incompatibilities between the two viewpoint/view, they just cannot ‘occupy’ the same ‘space’, and so alternate., until one takes over the other one.
This suggests that the ‘i’ is not ‘absolute’. No doubt about that, again, a distinction must be made, between ‘that I am’ and what I am. Furthermore as verb what are you? I think we should say I am therefore I think, not I think therefore I am like Descartes.
schroedinger says; “The multiplicity of consciousnesses is only apparent, there is only one mind.” .. “consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular.” Yes, that is my point, consciousness is always experience in the singular, self, mine, I, etc, what we call ‘mind’ might be a different ‘thing’, what kind of mind is it when Schrödinger, Wittgenstein, Freud, etc. talk about it? Isn’t it somehow a mind without a mind? In the very same way that we talk about a world or the world, what kind of world is it when we talk about a world or the world, if not a world without a world; a world of words! Do you have a brain? What kind of brain is it as you talk about it? Is it of the actual, factual brain? Can you hold this brain in your hand and talk about it? Then what kind of brain is it? So simple, a brain without a brain; words! When talking, thinking, etc. about the world, we actually talk about a world without a world, we live in the abstract, into a world of words.
This remind me of a Zen story, where a student ask the master ‘Master, after all these years of intense practice my mind is still deeply confused and in complete turmoil, please Master, put my mind to rest’ The master said to the student ‘ Bring me your mind and I will purify it’ hearing this the student came to deep awakening.
the colonizer and the colonized indigenous people are conscious of living in the same world, 7 billions world of words! There is no such thing as living in the same world.
But Heraclitus will remain eternally right with his assertion that being is an empty fiction. The “apparent” world is the only one: the “true” world is merely added by a lie. –Nietzsche, ‘Twilight of the Idols’ Being as nouns might be an empty fiction, but what about being as verb? Nietzsche is such a funny man, unfortunately I was too young when I read him and so cannot really appreciate all his depth.
but you seem to be speaking of a ‘language-enhanced consciousness’ while i/nietzsche would suggest that language facilitates a ‘dumbing down’ of consciousness that puts us into a world of ‘illusion’ or ‘maya’ which we take to be a ‘more true’ reality than the reality of our experience; i.e. you say; . “In Human being this mode of awareness of, has evolved”, implying that humans are a ‘more evolved’ form of ‘animal’. such a suggestion is non-sense if one first assumes that we are all related (interdependent as in an ecosystem); i.e. such a suggestion rests dependently on the notion of the human as an ‘independent thing’ that undergoes ‘its own evolution’.
Well, here we disagree, again, it is not a matter of either this or that; wording is revealing, but there are no things being reveal. When we do not see that there are no things being revealed, such as a world, a mind, I, other, etc. it is then that language/consciousness ‘facilitates a dumbing down’. Let me precise my pondering on this matter; consciousness as I define it, is a mode of awareness, specifically one in the many mode of awareness of. Only human being ‘possess’ language/words/consciousness. There are multiple of other mode of awareness, both of awareness of and awareness as. When you talk about relation space it is similar to what I mean by awareness as. Another way to look at this thing would be to use the metaphor foreground/background, foreground would be similar to awareness of and background to awareness as. When I write on the computer, I see the keyboard, the screen, the letter appearing one after the other, these are foreground, I am aware of (conscious)those, but the whole room and everything else has not disappear, it has become background so to speak, and I am aware as this ‘background’ as this space, but not of this ‘whole’ space, what I am aware of are “elements’ of this same background space. Awareness is ‘dual’, awareness as and awareness of, of which consciousness/language/words is simply one in the many mode of awareness. If we are stuck within the spell of words, we are stuck into an extremely focalized (foreground) viewpoint/view, and ‘everything else’ (all ‘other’ modes) are simply ignore. Living at the surface of the ocean in fury, ignoring the width, the depth and peace beneath the surface.
alain
1. reality versus experience
as poincaré observes, people split into two groups as to whether they believe that there is a reality beyond our experience or whether the sole source of reality is our experience. his understanding and mine, is that experience is the sole source of ‘reality’; i.e. there is not some world out there that exists independent of our experience. meanwhile your belief seems to be the other; i.e. you say “ I do not experience the real, reality and truth transcends experiences.
in his discussion in ‘Dernières Pensées’, Ch. V. Les Mathematiques et la Logique, poincaré discusses two ways of understanding our ideas and experiences, and if i am not mistaken, your way of thinking would be the way that he describes as ‘Cantorian realism’ and my way would be ‘pragmatist idealism’. i mention this in spite of my preference to deal strictly in the ideas/dialogue at hand without any dependency on what some philosopher said (i quote others to indicate that the same ground has been explored in the past, not that we can’t come up with something new). in this case, i am persuaded from my own experience, that poincaré’s observation is correct, that people do split into two fundamentally different ways of formulating a world view, in the manner he describes; i.e. that some believe that there is a real world that exists beyond our experience [you?.. cantorian realist] while there are those that believe that the world of our experience is the world [me, pragmatist idealist]. for the pragmatist idealist, the objects of our perception are not objects-in-themselves that exist prior to our experiencing them.
what we wake up to, in my view, is ‘experience’ and it would seem feasible that we could accept our experience and go with our ‘feelings’. i have nothing against the ‘tool’ of ‘reasoning’; i.e. ‘questioning’, but there is no way that i could see this questioning as hijacking my experience. you say; “Does it make sense even to ask those questions?” but that is in itself a question that troubles the peacefulness of one’s experience. to trouble one’s experience is one thing, but to hijack it is another; i.e. to assume that the questioning may reveal something more fundamental than experience, which, if we were to discover it, would explain our experience.
so, as it turns out, the philosophers i resonate with are all ‘pragmatist idealists’; i.e. poincaré, nietzsche, schroedinger, mcluhan, bohm, and they believe that ‘truth’ is something lesser than ‘experience’; i.e. nietzsche describes the problems with our society as coming from putting ‘truth’ which is inevitably in terms of ‘what things do’ (subject animated dynamics) into an unnatural precedence over our experiencing of reality.
“Reason” is the cause of our falsification of the testimony of the senses. Insofar as the senses show becoming, passing away, and change, they do not lie. But Heraclitus will remain eternally right with his assertion that being is an empty fiction. The “apparent” world is the only one: the “true” world is merely added by a lie. –Nietzsche, ‘Twilight of the Idols’
2. equally valid views versus one view being superior to another, is ‘not the point’
you seem to interpret my remarks as giving emphasis to ‘one view point over the other’. this is not my meaning. my meaning is that ‘transformation’ (the dynamic of a relational space) ‘transcends’ ‘viewpoints’ since viewpoints imply a fixed reference space [the observer describes ‘what is going on out there from his vantage point]. for example, the amerindian tool for understanding the world in transformational terms is to employ a ‘learning circle’ in which everyone has the chance to ‘speak-from-the-heart’ telling of their experience, and being listened to respectfully, without interruption or contradiction. every one of these shared experiences which constitutes a ‘viewpoint’ is as valid as any other. by bringing them all into relation with one another, our understanding is able to transcend the sum of its own parts and to visualize the relational transformation that we all share inclusion in. this is the ‘relational space’ view or ‘non-euclidian’ space view that einstein is talking about when he says, in ‘geometry and experience’;
First of all, an observation of epistemological nature. A geometrical-physical theory as such is incapable of being directly pictured, being merely a system of concepts. But these concepts serve the purpose of bringing a multiplicity of real or imaginary sensory experiences into connection in the mind. To “visualize” a theory therefore means to bring to mind that abundance of sensible experiences for which the theory supplies the schematic arrangement.
this is where we have to distinguish between ‘behaviour’ based on visual observation [subject animated behaviour] and ‘behaviour’ based on experience [spatial-relational dynamics or ‘situation animated dynamics’]. for example;
when i worked on survey ships out of saint johns newfoundland, the Portuguese ‘white fleet’ was still fishing cod on the grand banks. these were sailing ships and on the deck of the ‘mother ship’ were stacks of ‘dory boats’, one man fishing boats that they deployed. now the weather on the grand banks was rather unpredictable with respect to wave action, swells, currents and fog and portuguese fisherman going out in these little dory boats were often separated from their mates and from the mother ship and if they weren’t soon found, the men in them would die of exposure. as is the experience of sailors, you can be a few feet away from another vessel and be caught in a current or by a wind that takes you away at considerable speed relative to your neighbour. when one is in a field of winds and currents without a ‘referent’, one only knows the movements in a relative sense.
now, an overhead observer might say that ‘the fishermen returned to the mother ship’ as the fog rolled in, bringing in their catch of cod. this is the ‘subject animated dynamic’ version of ‘the dynamic’ which is in terms of ‘what things do over time’ [historical narrative], but the experience of some of the fishermen might be that they had to row like hell and say their prayers and then only barely make it back before the fog obscured them from one another and the mother ship, while some of the others barely had to lift an oar as the current and wind brought them towards the mother ship.
how would you interpret ‘the behaviour of the individual fisherman’? there is; (a) the rational behaviour which describes how each man’s behaviour is inside-outward asserting as directed from his internal processes (biochemical, neurophysical) and is expressed in termso of ‘historical narrative’ of what he did over time, and there is; (b) each man’s experiential behaviour of engaging with the dynamics of the space he is situationally included in. is nietzsche not ‘on target’ in claiming that, (a), the former ‘subject animated dynamic’ is a ‘mediocre truth’?
at the beginning of september each year, when the hurricanes often come raging up the east coast of north america, the transformational forces of nature sometimes recycle entire ships, crew, fisherman, cod catch, the lot, and not just a dory or two, … it would thus appear that the transformational dynamic predominates over [transcends] the dynamics of things-in-themselves. if the fishermen were to have ‘learning circles’ on board the boat where each of them could share their ‘historical narratives’, some would say; ‘i had a great day, i didn’t have to spend much time rowing and was able to concentrate on pulling in the best catch i’ve had in weeks’. and another might say; ‘i feared for my life, i spent almost all of my time rowing and trying to keep my dory from drifting off so that i never even had time to drop my fishing lines.’.
so, yes, i agree that one man’s view [in sharing his experience] is as valid as another man’s view even if very different, but what do we make of it when we listen to all of these ‘perspectives’ in the form of ‘historical narratives’ [what things do over time aka ‘subject animated narratives]? does our understanding not ‘lift up’ and ‘transcend’ the language based realm of historical narratives, exposing ‘historical narratives’ in terms of ‘subject animated dynamics’ as ‘mediocre truths’, and inform our understanding in terms of the inherent primacy of the transformation of spatial-relations and our situational inclusion therein? does the source of the dynamics not shift to ‘the dynamic space’ itself, trumping/transcending this notion of locally originating, internally driven and directed behaviours on the part of local ‘things-in-themselves’ aka ‘men’?
that one view is as valid as another is, to me, not the point. the point is that ‘historical narratives’ are in terms of ‘what things do over time’; i.e. they are in terms of ‘subject animated dynamics’ which assumes that the space these dynamics transpire within is a non-participant, much less an over-riding player that influences the development of the forms within it and influences their individual and collective behaviours as well. only when we impose a notional fixed reference space do we get this view in terms of subject animated dynamics. as Poincaré put it;
“Space is another framework we impose upon the world” . . . ” . . . here the mind may affirm because it lays down its own laws; but let us clearly understand that while these laws are imposed on our science, which otherwise could not exist, they are not imposed on Nature.” . . . “Euclidean geometry is, and will remain, the most convenient: 1st, because it is the simplest, and it is not so only because of our mental habits or because of the kind of direct intuition that we have of Euclidean space; it is the simplest in itself, just as a polynomial of the first degree is simpler than a polynomial of the second degree; 2nd, because it sufficiently agrees with the properties of natural solids, those bodies which we can compare and measure by means of our senses.” . . . “the space revealed to us by our senses is absolutely different from the space of geometry.” . . . Henri Poincaré, ’Science and Hypothesis’.”
3. victor hugo’s ‘les miserables’: -the lesson is?
you say; In Hugo, les misérables, both Jean Valjean and the judge were ‘right’, both have equal value and status, although they were mutually incompatibles viewpoints/views. In this is the drama of human existence.
and i say that the judge is like the captain of the portuguese fishing boat who says to one of the late returning fishermen, you are late in coming back and you return with no fish at all. you will have to be punished for this, as the others have all come back on time and with something to show for it.
the judge is not just sharing a view of his own experience as jean valjean is [in which case the two views would be equally valid], he is imposing his rational interpretation on jean valjean’s experience by capturing it in terms of ‘subject animated dynamics’; i.e. the dynamics of local things-in-themselves notional acting/interacting in an absolute fixed, empty and infinite space [a logical view].
this to me is an example of how our society is screwing up. we insist on imposing these subject animated dynamics view on others, denying them their own real-life experience and expecting them to conform to rational views of behaviour regardless of the unique and particular ‘situation’ they find themselves in that shapes their behaviour via outside-inward influence in conjugate relation with their inside-outward asserting influence.
4. ‘viewpoints’ are not ‘the experience’.
you say; two viewpoint/view [colonizer/colonized/turncoat], they just cannot ‘occupy’ the same ‘space’, and so alternate., until one takes over the other one.
viewpoints are ‘ideas’, they are not ‘experience’. i have a quebecois friend who is half abenaki and half of french parentage. he says that the indian and the white man both inhabit him at the same time. if he hears a white man-like criticism of indians and it resonates with him, he supports it and gets angry at the indian, and if he hears an indian like criticism of the white man that resonates with him, he supports it and criticizes the white man. he understands that ‘transformation’ of himself and society transcends these opposing views. his family is split in that some family members adopted the white man’s ways of thinking and other family members adopted the indian’s way of thinking.
if the two ‘views’ were not still present, there would be no internal conflict, but there is internal conflict because it is only the superficial demonstration of allegiances and loyalties that have been given to ‘one way’ or ‘the other’, and that is a ‘rational choice’. the conflict is transformative, both in the individual and in the society.
our behaviour incorporates the behaviours of the wolves and bears (e.g. we are cautious when we go for long journeys on snowshoes or ice-skating up rivers in the winter, when the wolves are hungry). the mediocre truth of rational behaviour reduces this to the one-sided terms of our inside-outward asserting, internally driven and directed behaviour, while our experience informs us, like the fisherman, that the dynamics of nature we are situationally included in are shaping our behaviour from the outside-inward. the only thing holding us back from acknowledging this is our affinity for ‘euclidian space’ wherein the only possible dynamics are inside-outward-asserting ‘subject animated dynamics’.
5. ‘in the beginning was the word’, or ‘in the beginning was the experience’?
when i quoted schroedinger “The multiplicity of consciousnesses is only apparent, there is only one mind.”, it was clear to me that he was intending the ‘headless’ ‘experiential’ state of zen. but you seem to always bring the conversation back to ‘words’; e.g. the words ‘brain’ and ‘mind’, and reduce these to meaninglessness, as if you believe that ‘in the beginning was the word’, rather than ‘in the beginning was the experience’. i.e. you say;
“what kind of mind is it when Schrödinger, Wittgenstein, Freud, etc. talk about it? Isn’t it somehow a mind without a mind? In the very same way that we talk about a world or the world, what kind of world is it when we talk about a world or the world, if not a world without a world; a world of words! Do you have a brain? What kind of brain is it as you talk about it? Is it of the actual, factual brain? Can you hold this brain in your hand and talk about it? Then what kind of brain is it? So simple, a brain without a brain; words! When talking, thinking, etc. about the world, we actually talk about a world without a world, we live in the abstract, into a world of words. “
we do come into this world of transformation in the manner the wolf and bear come into it, via our experiencing of it, our pre-lingual, pre-cultural experiencing of it [we emerge into a web of spatial-relations which our behaviour mirror images].
we seem to agree that language can confuse the issue. my view is like emerson’s that language is a tool that has run away with the workman. without language we still have experience of the world. in my view, our understanding of the world does not start from words. language has us capture what is going on in terms of ‘subject animated dynamics’. that is all it can do, rationally. poetically employed, language (e.g. metaphors of nature) can take us to non-rational, poetic understandings wherein we can understand that flow transcends the forms that gather within it, as quantum physics with its ‘wave structure of space’ [relational space or non-euclidian space] suggests is a more realistic way to understand our experience.
we are not dependent on ‘words’ for our understanding of the world. like fish, our relational experience is of a conjugate habitat/world – inhabitant/self experience. trying to understand a talking animal like ourselves is another matter since language radically transforms our animal behaviour. birds and whales etc. also communicate with one another and this transforms their relational dynamics as well.
shifting our inquiry from ‘the world’ to the funny, different behaviours that language brings to animals, my guess is that humans not only have language to make them different, but ‘geometry’ as well, because we focus more on the movements of ‘things in space’ as in the fishermen dispersing from the mother ship and returning to it, than to the over-riding influence of the dynamic energy-charged space they are situationally included in, gathered in and are being regathered into. the judge in hugo’s ‘les miserables’ is a case in point; i.e. he orients to the geometrical aspect of the dynamics as in ‘what things do’.
6. ‘consciousness’ as awareness immanent in the world’ versus ‘consciousness as a mode of awareness’ [one in the many mode of awareness of].
it seems as if we disagree as to the nature of consciousness; i.e. i do not see ‘consciousness’ as being ‘reducible’ to a capability of man. i see consciousness as ‘the evolutionary force’ in the manner of nietzsche’s ‘will to power’ and to schroedinger’s ‘one mind’, the consciousness that is an immanent property of the transforming universe.
that is, i have a problem with imputing dependence on something that is a capability of ‘man’ and trying to build understanding upwards from the assumption that ‘man exists’. to me, this is like saying ‘hurricanes exist’. this is mediocre truth. turbulence exists in an energy-charged spatial-relational sense and we, as observers, impute ‘existence’ to forms within the spatial relational transformation. therefore, to develop understanding based on ‘what things do’ [the thing called man that has an awareness of] already constrains the understanding in a basic way.
i.e. you say; “Let me precise my pondering on this matter; consciousness as I define it, is a mode of awareness, specifically one in the many mode of awareness of. Only human being ‘possess’ language/words/consciousness.
i don’t accept that we can usefully start our inquiry on the basis of ‘what man does’ any more than we can start our inquiry into the dynamics of atmospheric flow, starting from ‘what storm cells do’ since storm cells are the children of thermal field imbalances in the flow and are not ‘things in themselves’ that we can start our inquiry from but ‘conjugate habitat-inhabitant relations’ or ‘relational features in the flow’.
of course, i might be misinterpreting your ‘words’ here since clarifying the inquiry gets pretty tricky and we both acknowledge, if i am not mistaken, that our experience of the world is ‘beyond words’ but it is fair game to try to allude to what we are respectively understanding, using words as tools.
in your following narrative, you seem to me to end up with only the ‘duality’ of foreground and background awareness which gives me the sense of a ‘live observer/experient’ and a ‘dead space’.
“ There are multiple of other mode of awareness, both of awareness of and awareness as. When you talk about relation space it is similar to what I mean by awareness as. Another way to look at this thing would be to use the metaphor foreground/background, foreground would be similar to awareness of and background to awareness as. When I write on the computer, I see the keyboard, the screen, the letter appearing one after the other, these are foreground, I am aware of (conscious)those, but the whole room and everything else has not disappear, it has become background so to speak, and I am aware as this ‘background’ as this space, but not of this ‘whole’ space, what I am aware of are “elements’ of this same background space. Awareness is ‘dual’, awareness as and awareness of, of which consciousness/language/words is simply one in the many mode of awareness. If we are stuck within the spell of words, we are stuck into an extremely focalized (foreground) viewpoint/view, and ‘everything else’ (all ‘other’ modes) are simply ignore. Living at the surface of the ocean in fury, ignoring the width, the depth and peace beneath the surface.
in my view, you leave the observer/experient in the middle and describe him as having the capability of ‘awareness of’ [foreground elements] and ‘awareness as’ [being ‘of’ the background].
in my view, the man, the wolf, the bear are all included in a web of spatial relations in the manner captured by Mach’s principle; “the dynamics of the habitat are conditioning the dynamics of the inhabitants at the same time as the dynamics of the inhabitants are conditioning the dynamics of the habitat.” or in nietzsche’s terms, the world is an evolutionary dynamic, a process of flow wherein outside-inward nurturing influence predominates over inside-outward asserting influence. [i would modify the ‘placement’ of ‘predominating’ and say that our understanding in terms of spatial-relational transformation predominates over our understanding in terms of what things do].
in this view, the whole world is ‘alive’ and ‘conscious’ so we are not taking about a space that has elements out there like man [that are points of consciousness within an unconscious space] wherein man has the powers ‘to be aware of’ elements in that space and has the powers of being aware as, the background that he is observing/experiencing from.
finally, i fully acknowledge that ‘words’ get in the way of our attempt to share our understanding, so that if we are to succeed in reconciling our understanding, which i believe has to be ‘in common’ at some deep level, it will not come about through a ‘war of words’, but through a mutual ‘aha’ that reaches in behind the respective words.
ted
Hi Ted,
Thanks for the lengthy reply; I unfortunately do not have the time to properly answer back at length. I am adding two texts that I have written in the last few months that I think covers most of what we are discussing here.
For me, the real just cannot be known! It is neither inside, outside, beyond, nor is it our experiences. Experiences are known or knowable, they are transient, passing by, discontinuous, in brief, they are of the ephemeral. And whatever is passing by just cannot be called real. Experiences for me are ‘downstream’ to an ungraspable, unknowable upstream which I call reality and truth.
(There is not some world out there that exists independent of our experience). I could not agree more; What we look from is what we look at, this is the root of what we call experiences, but it has very little to do with reality, it is Fiktion. There is no real world, that exist beyond our experiences, and yes the world of our experience is the world, but it has nothing to do with ‘reality’.
(viewpoints are ‘ideas’, they are not ‘experience’). Ideas transcend both viewpoint and view, an idea gathers what we look from with what we look at. There are two sorts of conflicts, one is within, and the other one is without. One when a set (what we look from/look at, a single paradigm if you prefer) is incompatible with another set (paradigm). And the second one which is within, when what we look from does not gather anymore with what we look at, within a single set, and that is a complete impossibility.
(he understands that ‘transformation’ of himself and society transcends these opposing views). But how can you achieved this? For me, beyond all perspectives or paradigms, there is a knot, a twist, conflicts, beyond words, upstream of what I call consciousness. The thing is, there is ‘internal’ conflict beyond all paradigm. And yes, conflict is transformative, isn’t it after all the struggle to resolve the conflict itself the source of creativity. Failure to resolve the conflict creatively, often ends in violence. In fact I think that violence erupts when creativity fails. In the case of your friend, the québécois, the two paradigms alternates, the speed of this alternation may be very fast as to make it appear that it is simultaneous. I have my own reason to think that it is so.
(5. ‘in the beginning was the word’, or ‘in the beginning was the experience’?) No word, no experience! Right from the beginning, nothing is!
(when i quoted schroedinger “The multiplicity of consciousnesses is only apparent, there is only one mind.”, it was clear to me that he was intending the ‘headless’ ‘experiential’ state of zen.) I may be wrong, but my intuition tells me that Schrödinger ‘one mind’, is an ‘abstract’ ‘One mind’. Talk about it is living in a world of words, show me is concrete! Furthermore, ‘headless’ as an experience is similar to what some call ‘Samadhi’ state, and in all Samadhi as in all experience, there is still duality. One mind is not an experience!
( without language we still have experience of the world. in my view, our understanding of the world does not start from words.) What kind of world would that be without language? What kind of understanding would that be? I do think that animals do have some kind of ‘world view’. (There is a German expression for this that I forgot the name) some kind of endo and exo-resonnance, which most of us have lost touch with and replace this with language base understanding. I want to be clear on one thing, our way of seeing is object/language base, and I think that this object base view even if it has some value, is as far as we think that this object way of seeing is real beyond any possible doubt is to me complete heresy. In this regard, Martin Buber has written a book some time ago on the relation between I and it, it is a very good book which I strongly recommend.
(we are not dependent on ‘words’ for our understanding of the world.) Unfortunately I think that we are, whether it transforms our relational dynamic or not. Unfortunately, words now stand under all our world view.
(shifting our inquiry from ‘the world’ to the funny, different behaviours that language brings to animals, my guess is that humans not only have language to make them different, but ‘geometry’ as well, because we focus more on the movements of ‘things in space’ as in the fishermen dispersing from the mother ship and returning to it, than to the over-riding influence of the dynamic energy-charged space they are situationally included in, gathered in and are being regathered into. the judge in hugo’s ‘les miserables’ is a case in point; i.e. he orients to the geometrical aspect of the dynamics as in ‘what things do’.) I do agree, but the ‘thingness of things is language base’ ‘things in space’ require ‘things’ to start with, and it is language that allow this.
Regarding awareness and consciousness. We will have to come back to this, because I know that this can create a lot of confusion.
alain
As we study, interpret, as we live, we as a person, as a priest, as a simple worker, as a scientist, etc., look from and look at. As we do our work, we alternatively look from our implicit knowledge for example, and look at some explicit specificity, things, objects. To look from is to look from ‘within’, inwardly, it is our subjectivity, to look at is to look outwardly, it is our objectivity. To look inwardly, is to look from, and to look outwardly is to look at, of both trends we have made points of view, which we call the subjective and the objective points of view. I do know that we tend to see subjectivity as some kind of ‘lower’ way of thinking, as closer to fantasy, imagination then what is, we tend to disgust or disregard subjective people. I think that this is a mistake, I think that an expression such as lack of rigor would be much better in both the subjective and the objective viewpoint/view. I have read a lot of books written by scientist who lack rigors, and a lot of books written by non-scientist which were extremely rigorous.
Objectivity and subjectivity are not a method per say, we do not become nor we do not lack either of subjectivity or objectivity, but can lack of rigor, of well define limits by which one can express this subjectivity and objectivity. The methods are the limits, some are learned others are individuals capacities and ‘gifts’, scientific method isn’t of the objective point of view, but within the objective point of view. For example Aristotle logic, being one of those limits is very helpful in ‘framing’ the objective point of view, much less so in the subjective point of view.
I am neither a subjective person, nor am I an objective person, I am a carpenter, a pragmatic manual worker, who makes use of its hands, and which uses both subjectivity and objectivity as a way to resolves daily problems and obstructions.
The objective point of view it seems to me is a centrifugal direction (without, outward) ; we look at.
The subjective point of view it seems to me is a centripetal direction (within, inward) : we look from.
Both are not only necessary, they are vital and essential because they are an integral part of all we see, all we know, of life itself. There is simply nothing to look at if there isn’t anything to look from, and vice versa, there is no looking from if there is nothing to look at.
Sciences has appropriate for itself the objective point of view, by making a duality out of a process. Emphasis on what you look at is simply what we call the objective point of view, emphasis on what we look from being what we call the subjective point of view.
Within consciousness, fundamentally, what you look at is what you look from, and vice versa, what you look from is what you look at. It is not a duality, nor is it a polarity, it is neither identity nor equivalence, the is, is a is of process, of dynamism.
Depending on one’s own rigidity, one could see this in three different ways (and maybe more); as a duality, as a polarity or as a process. As a duality, one tends to discard the other completely, becoming one or the other, either it is objective or it is subjective, they are antagonistic one to the other. As a polarity objectivity and subjectivity are two ‘poles’ likes a magnet has two poles, although antagonist, they complement each others. And as a process what you look from is what you look at, opposites dissolves but opposition remains as process.
Science and meditation.
The two ‘main’ approach are not the same. Sciences can be said to be objective, and religions/meditations practices can be said to be subjective. The mistake (lack of rigor) sciences make quite often is to attempt to look at the looking from, and its failure to do so result in negating any ‘content’ to what we look from, and they are not entirely wrong, for what you look from has no specific content and thus cannot be recognizable, it is not a pattern. For sciences, reality is what you look at, and if you cannot look at the looking from, then it is inexistent, unreal. Scientific objective point of view by its very definition and orientation just cannot meet with the subjective point of view and orientation. What you look at is a thing, a pattern, parts or relations, it is object or relation oriented, and when we try to look at the looking from, we search, seek an object, a pattern, a form, a thing to grab, grasp, a specificity. What we look from is ‘undifferentiated’, it is not a specificity, it is ‘whole’, for example; we look from a perspective (culture, mythology, ideology, etc.) and we look at a specificity, but the perspective by which we look from ‘acts’ as kind of a background ‘whole’ which isn’t specific or specifiable, it is a ‘whole’, a gestalt. You can look at a specific aspect of this ‘background’, but never at the whole of it. Because to look at is to look at a specificity or in a specific way.
Once in a while I take a nap for a few hours on the week end, and sometime after I wake up, I have forgotten where I am spatially and temporally, I feel lost; that is I have forgotten what place, day, and time I am ‘in’. It is an uncomfortable, confusing situation/experience, and quite fast, I try to recuperate, I try to find my references points, I look for to look from my own cultural/mythological background referent and it may take a while (few seconds), not a deep panic, but a real discomfort and confusion set in, until I look at, at the place where I am, and at the year, month, days, hours , which progressively comes to mind. I look for to look from (mythology) so that I can look for to look at a specific aspect of this same mythological content. To look for to look from a mythology is another way of saying that we look for to look at a specific aspect of this mythology. We look from a mythological interpretation of time and space, but look at a specific aspect of this same mythology. Saturday, September 18, 2011, 6:33 am is a specific aspect of my ‘own (western civilization)’ mythological conception of time, which I look at. That it is a mythology is obvious when we consider that there still are and has been numerous other ways at looking from and at time, the Chinese and Aztec calendar being two of them.
When we or sciences attempts to look at the looking from, we and they fail, and we and they are right, for you cannot look at the ‘whole’ of what makes the looking from, it is not a thing, it is non-specific, you just cannot look at your own whole mythological background in one single view. But they transform the failure to do so into a victory over the subjective by saying that it is unreal, inexistent because it just cannot be look at, there is no visible, or graspable, measureable traces of this looking from, which is completely ridiculous, because in doing so they take away the painter from the painting. There are left with a phantom or void in here, and a painting out there, such as Saturday, September 18, 2011, 6:33 am, without any ‘background’ mythology by which we look from. In all the houses I have build, none as erect itself by itself, in all the house that I have build, the painter is in the painting, the painting is in the painter, as process. Sciences position itself as a painting without a painter. Even as they look at ‘the painter’, they still see ‘it’ as a painting without a painter. The failure to see what you look at being what you look from as a process instead of a rigid duality result in what I see as complete non-sense.
What time is it? Do you still live in time? Or is time living in you? Time, as you specify it, can only live in you, since it is an integral part of your own mythology, of what you look from. What then are you looking at? A mind state? An objective fact? The etymology of the word ‘fact’ means a doing, and yes, an objective fact is done, being the ‘sub-product’ of a process, that which you look at (objective fact) is that which you look from.
Sciences has made very impressive and fascinating discoveries on the physical and so call psychological human condition. Sciences focus on what we are as what can be look at, on what can be observe, look at, on physical and also within limits on so call psychological ‘level’, on some recognizable or observable so called ‘psychological’ aspect. Those psychological aspects that can be look at are very often if not in most cases correlations between the observed psychological phenomenon and a physical phenomenon. That is to say to be real, it must have a physical, observable correlate, which is unfortunately very often confuse as a specific cause for a specific effect.
Experiments are needed in order to be able to show and to share what is being said (theory) with what is being seen or look at. Experiments are discontinuous; they are a set up (an extension of a way to look from) with a specific purpose; to be able to look at something very specific, lasting the time of the experiments. Experiences are within time, within space, and are discontinuous. It thus can be and need to be repeated. You may abstract all you like all your set up (that by which you look from, including your own mythological conception of both time and space), but in whatever you look at it is implicit. Sciences deals with the discontinuous, with what comes and go as one looks at. Experiences, whether Scientifics or daily ordinary experiences come and go, they are one experience at the time, they are discontinuous. What sciences does in fact is to study discontinuity in a discontinuous way; the transient, the passing by. Fossils, stars, mind states, genes, are passing by, they last a certain amount of time, occupy a certain amount of space, which rest upon our own mythological conception of time and space, that is to say that to some extent, we create the time and space in which all those events take place.
Where is your yesterday morning breakfast now? Is it real? If the only reality is what you look at (actual) or can look at (potential), just how real is your yesterday morning breakfast now? Can you look at it now? Now, your yesterday morning breakfast in fact means nothing at all, you can talk about it now, but just cannot look at it now, you cannot show it now or even demonstrate it now, and surely you cannot eat it now, it just and simply cannot be call real, for it has no reality whatsoever now. Whatever you look at, whatever you experience is passing by, it is transient, changing, changes itself, and thus just cannot be call real. Sciences deal not with the real, but with patterns, a pattern is more or less a recognizable apparent continuity within discontinuity. The purpose of sciences is this; to discover apparent local continuity within the discontinuous and non-local. I said apparent continuity, and I said this with a purpose in mind; what is apparent has no guarantee of being so in all time and in all space, it is not an absolute, that is to say that the apparent continuity is also discontinuous, kind of ‘temporary order within or out of chaos’, which will eventually return to a chaotic state, increase randomness or maximum entropy sooner or later. To talk in terms of chaos, randomness, entropy are wrong expressions, it is somewhat judgmental and refer more to my own ignorance of what is, I rather uses a more neutral expressions such as discontinuity, non-local, transient, passing by. Words such as order and disorder are to this person completely meaningless, they simply reflect one subjective or objective subjectivity; opinion.
What you look at is passing by, absolutely everything you look at or can look at is passing by, and thus just cannot be said to be real. Science, I repeat myself does not deal with the real, but with what appears to be apparent temporary patterns within the discontinuous or passing by. Sciences deal with the unreal. Sciences deal with patterns, with what can be called content; what can be specifically look at, with the known.
You tell me, how in the hell can you say that what comes and go can be call real? You study something call the mind, well to me, nothing is more unstable than this mind, it is a collection of a diversity of changing states with very little continuity and a lot of discontinuities. What mind are you studying, which one? Where is the anger you were looking at a few minutes ago? Where is it gone to now? What appears and look at, suddenly disappear to go no-where to, and you want me to believe that it is real? Or even was real? I only hope that the houses that I build will last a little bit longer. Experiences, all of them, comes and go, but there is nowhere to go to, so what reality is there in all of this? Sciences deals with the unreal. Empirical data are of the ephemeral, the passing by, the discontinuous, the short lived, the unreal. It is very strange to hear from distinguish scientists that they have proof of what they are saying, it is base on empirical data. Hum!, funny. I have a proof of your anger, I have proof of your yesterday morning breakfast, I have empirical data of it, it is real, I have computerized records of it, but where is it now? Where did it go to? Your proof is of the ephemeral. How can you say that it is real, or even was real? What comes and go to this no-where to go to, just cannot be said to be real. And somehow, your proof is a proof that it is indeed of the ephemeral, you would not need all of those recorded data to ‘recall’ your yesterday morning breakfast now, you would simply and be pragmatic by eating it.
Meditation deals with ‘something’ else, they also deal with the human condition, but they do not deal with the empirical ephemeral data of the physical or so call psychological aspect of the human condition, they do not deal with what you look at, but deals with what you look from and for a very few unfortunate, beyond both from and at; with and as reality itself.
Scientist just cannot help it, they have to specify everything, being hostages of their own point of view/view and because of this they can only try to specify everything including what you look from, they have to make this looking from a thing, a pattern, such as mind, brain etc. I repeat myself once again, what you look at is what you look from, what you look from is what you look at, it is process not a duality, if you cannot see this as process then you will be looking for to look at endlessly.
Religions and meditation deal with the unknown and /or the undifferentiated, not with what has specific content, not with the known, or unreal. They deal with the ocean, not with the crest of a passing wave. Unfortunately this is very often misunderstood, and the source of a lot of confusion and conflicts within the religious community, less within meditation communities, but still very much present in most of them, including meditation practices.
The emphasis of ‘religious and meditations’ communities is on the looking from, on what we as human being look from, and much less emphasis on what we look at. It is often felt as if what you look at is not as real as what you look from, or that there must be something more than just what you can look at, and of course they are right because there is this whole ‘other’ universe by which you look from.
As I said earlier, what you look at is a centrifugal movement, kind of “out going’ and what you look from is a centripetal movement or ‘in going’. These two movements or trends are contradictory, antagonistic, that is to say that they are fundamentally incompatible one to the other. To me, the essence and purpose of meditation is to go right into the inherent tension resulting from this incompatibility. The essence of meditation, is to go into the inherent conflict between the subjective (what you look from) and the objective (what you look at). What makes the tension even greater is that not only is the looking from and the looking at are antagonistic one to the other, they are also complementary one to the others. It is kind of a trap, from which there is simply no escape. And this to me is the basic human condition beyond the physical and the so called psychological. It is completely and entirely out of the field of science, for science deal with the known, the unreal, or if you like it softer, with apparent patterns within the discontinuous and mind states.
It seems to this person, that our sight or life (in a metaphorical and very wide sense) is ambiguous; it is impregnated with or as a tension; from a centripetal and centrifugal movement, which are simultaneously antagonistic and complementary. The general feeling being kind of ‘the army that I fight against is in itself the army by which I fight.’ It is impossible to win this fight or even to lose this fight. It is a trap from which there is no escape, and this to me is human condition, from a meditative perspective. It is beyond the known, beyond what you look at and even can look at. It is a knot which cannot be untied, but yet must be untied. Religions are an attempt at giving some answers to this impossibility, to give it a form, a verbal expression and meditations practice at going right into the impossibility, without form, without nouns, right into the tension, the darkness, the unknown.
From this person perspective, science isn’t even half of the story, but a entertaining fictional story when it comes to statement such as ‘God is dead’, ‘men is a machine, a computer, software, etc’.
To go into the darkness, is to go beyond consciousness (what you look from is what you look at as process) which act as a buffer to the inherent tension of me as center/me as periphery, (centripetal/centrifugal trends).
It is interesting to know that it is Isaac Newton himself who has brought up the expression centrifugal and centripetal as we now use them; as to flee or move toward the center. To look at, is to flee the center, it is out going and to look from is to move forward toward the center, it is in going.
centripetal
1709, from Mod.L., coined 1687 by Sir Isaac Newton, from L. centri- alternative comb. form of centrum “center” (see center) + petere “to fall upon, rush out, move forward” (see petition). Centripetal force. is Newton’s vim … centripetam.
centrifugal
c.1721, with adj. suffix -al (1) + Mod.L. centrifugus, 1687, coined by Sir Isaac Newton in “Principia,” from L. centri- alternative comb. form of centrum “center” (see center) + fugere “to flee” (see fugitive). Centrifugal force is Newton’s vis centrifuga.
I said that meditation practice is in some way to go in between the subjective and the objective, I do not know if it is in between or as both, what I do fell is that at this ‘level’, that I look from is that I look at, and this time, the is is a is of identity of substances and verbs. It is a complete impossibility, a fracture, a split within the very fabric of our being. This spilt is simply unbearable. The mind, what we call the mind or consciousness just cannot ‘take’ it. It is somehow paralyzed.
Within consciousness or as consciousness, it is process, what you look from is what you look at, and vice versa. But beyond consciousness, it is that the very content of what you look at, is that you look from (but this time, the is, is a is of identity of mutually incompatibles substances and verbs) It is an impossibility, the face of the impossible, and it lies beyond the reach of consciousness. It is unattainable from within consciousness.
Beyond consciousness, what you look at is what you look from, but it is the is of identity.; Antagonists are identity, or equivalence, similar as to say to go north is to go south. What you look at is of a specificity, but that specificity is what you look from which just cannot be because to look from is to look from non-specificity, it would be like saying that the part is the whole whole, the whole whole the part. What is interesting in this, is that movement is impossible, although this ‘immobility’ might be illusory, and might be the result of a very speedy alternation between looking from and looking at. It is confrontation, tension, glacially staring at each others, without any kind of possibility of being one or the other, without choices; the one being the other, and the deep sense of the impossibility that one is the other, ‘Here’, in this no-man lands, one is the other and is the impossibility that one is the other, being contradictory, antagonist. The centrifugal is the centripetal and the impossibility that it is so.
Consciousness (what you look from and look at as dynamism) and experiences (what you look at), being downstream to an impossible upstream. Now, one can understand in a better way the origin of the word ‘trauma’, and also the familiarity this word has with another word, the German word ‘traum’, meaning ‘dream’. The impossible upstream ‘trauma, wound’ dreaming (consciousness) a word as a ‘get away’, or gateway.
alain
Within and as consciousness, what you look from is what you look at. The is, is the is of process and the ‘from and at’ are nouns; these ‘nouns’ are for example our ideologies, cultural referents, memories/experiences, content, etc. Although it is process, they seem to have some recurrence and stability of specific content over time. Our conception of space and time stays relatively the same as years passes by, and so is the language we speak, and most of our cultural referents.
But what you look from is what you look at is also be verbs, the emphasis is now more on the process itself, as the process, with less emphasis on what we look from or what we look at. It is change changing, open or openness. Neither one nor the other is being ‘privilege’, the whole thing just flow.
Scientific base communities and beliefs base communities, are respectively emphasis on the objective (what you look at) and emphasis on the subjective (what you look from). When a scientist is in the lab, his emphasis is on what he look at, when he is back home or having dinner at a restaurant for example, his emphasis is now on what he look from. They are call so, but both requires some ‘specific priors’ and ‘something to look at; it is process. There is no pure subjectivity or objectivity, both in some way are ‘subjective objectivity’ and objective subjectivity’. We just cannot split them apart.
In these days of chaos, everything seems to be leveling down; everything has now become equal to everything else. How many time I have heard ‘my opinion is as good as yours’, ‘my narrative has equal value to yours’. Reality is for many what is being said and shown on TV, The media space is now the reality space. And what is not part of that space has simply become irrelevant or is nonexistent. We seem to be living into sort of a ghetto mind, whereby our awareness of what is ‘reality’, has become what the media space is conveying. We could write a whole book just on this topic alone, but I have no intent to do so here. Just ask yourself as you listen to commentators on any media space why do you understand everything that is being said, simply because we have created and share a collective ghetto space, a space that define reality as the content of this ghetto. We take it for granted that what is being said is what is, but this is so because we share this same ghetto mind. A mind that define everything according to a extremely narrow view, kind of a pin hole view within a very dense wall, but this pin hole view, has become our entire view of what is. The world is simply never what anybody can say about it, never. We cherry pick but see not only this single cherry as the whole tree, but the whole forest.
We have lost something extremely important; a sense of hierarchy. Without hierarchy, meaning, values, purpose, ethical conduct, sense of directions, all fades away. We get lost deeply in a solitary forest where all trees are the same trees, all mountains the same mountains. We are now all failing at going back home, and are like stray cats. This pulling downward increases chaos all over the planet. We are deeply in need of new ideas, ideas that would bring back some kind of hierarchy. Ideas gather, ideologies fight and quarrel with each others.
Our Human view of the world is word base, resting almost entirely on words. What this world is, what is happening in the world, how we relate to each others, who we are, etc, not only require words, but participate even more than our eyes to profile a view of the world. Words and experiences shape a specific world, a unique and distinct world for each of us. Each of us has a view of the world that is unique; my own world of words view and viewpoint. Each is this view and viewpoint. As strange as it may sound, there would be no world as we know ‘it’ without words. Our experience of the world rest on words. And to some extent, if ‘something’ has no name, then ‘it’ simply does not exist. Everything we see has a name, and is brought to our attention because of it having a name. Everything is secure by our use of names, the world is knowable because of nouns, and we live within this very controlled and sophisticated close bubble, kind of highly sanitized, artificial and ‘under control’ room. To know the world, is to have names and a narrative for that ‘same’ world. This is truly amazing; words are truly a world in itself. Does Canada exist without the word Canada? For something to exist, it must have a name, be a word. The city you live in would not exist if you would not have words for it, then ask yourself where you would be? Where are you if you have no words to specify the city you live in? What if you have no word for what we know as a city, a region, a country? And that answer/no-answer is Reality! This no-answer is Reality, but can you take it? Can you live within this truth? Can you live without fear?
Words confine, impound, isolate and partition. What is water without the noun ‘water’? What is the sky above without the words ‘sky above’? One of the ‘marvelous’ thing about words, is that I can talk about the sky above even if I am in the basement of my house; in some mysterious way, I can bring the sky with me, and because of words, I can ‘see’ it, talk about it. I do not need to be outside in order to describe this sky. But as I talk about the sky in my basement, is it real? Truly amazing, how could I talk about a real sky above when in my basement? Can your cat talk about the sky above? Have I brought the sky with me in my basement? Then what kind of sky is it? What are words? What is water without the name ‘water’? Take the word away, what is left? Is it? Of course there is ‘something’, but what is it? Take away all hearsay and tell me what is your name? Who are you? The real cannot be known, for reality has no name. Words are similar to a high security compound and we live almost exclusively right into the middle of it and as ‘it’. Once more, what is water without the name water? Where do you seek ‘it’? Are you seeking for other words or for water?
Somehow, we lose our referents, and feel we get lost, slightly confuse, do not really know where to turn to or even what to do, or what the question means. What is water without the name water? The most difficult is quite often the most obvious; I do not know; reality without a name. And this I do not know is active, action or verb; I know that I do not know. Not knowing is being, not being is knowing. What is being without knowing? What kind of being is it without knowing? Being and knowing are verbs, not nouns. Are you? And then what are you? As nouns, as hearsay, what are you? But much more importantly as verbs what are you? Have you ever asked yourself this question? Are you nouns or verbs? Are you? Are you a thing? Are you verbs? Now you may consider these questions quite ‘philosophical’, abstract, but to me, they are the most concrete questions a human being can ask himself or herself. If you do not know who you are, nothing else in your entire life can be meaningful. You will act, think, and live at the periphery of your own self, as some kind of a fictional clown that you will carry at arm length outside of yourself for others to look at, spending your entire life looking at being look at as this clown.
As soon as we step more than a few second out of this high security compound, we panic and attempt at all cost to go back to it. This is what I mean by living in a world of words! Is it real? Is your world real? Where is the line between a complete fantasy world and your world or even the world? Into which one do we all live into? Should Canada go to war against another country? In which world do we fight, kill and butcher each other? If we had no words for each others, who would we fight against?
It is so strange, so taken for granted, words make up our view and viewpoint of the world. Ideas gathers what we look at (view) with what we look from (viewpoint) into one flowing coherent and meaningful whole.
Ideas are verbs, ideologies are nouns. Our ideas have for most of them, become nouns; ideologies. The main difference between the two is simply a question of emphasis, ideas as verbs are dynamic, they are process, they flow, are open and open minded, they are opportunities, and require that the emphasis be on this openness, on the dynamical aspect. In ideologies, the emphases has lost touch so to speak to the dynamic aspect of ideas and now focus or emphasize either on what we look from (the subjective) or what we look at (the objective). As nouns, an ideology is an ideology, no better or worse than any other ideology, they tend to have equal value one to each other, and thus the leveling down. They tend to bend whatever is being look at to that by which one is looking from, and some go even as far as negating any content or reality to that by which they look from.
The main problem with science as an ideology is that it is negating any kind of subjective aspect or that by which they look from in their activity and discourse. Science as an idea is verb, it is open, open opportunities, it is flowing. We see the same kind of problem with religions, politics, philosophies, etc. But with a slight difference, the emphasis is now on that by which one looks from and if what they are looking at does not fit in, then we make it fit; we tend to bend what we look at in order to make it fit to that by which we look from. Science does the opposite, they tend to bend what they look from to what they look at, while having previously bend what they look at to what they look from, and at the same time negating any ‘reality’ to what they look from, saying out load that they have no bias and prejudice, no from by which they look from, how ironic! When science describe the world, they use words, but do so in the exact same way that I was using them when talking about the sky above while in my basement. It is an abstraction, the sky above without the sky above, the noun water without water. A world without a world. Is it real? The sky above without the sky above is what you say is, but it has nothing to do at all with the sky above. In my basement I do not see the sky above; I do not look at or from the sky above, but look at and from an abstract ‘the sky above’; a sky above without the sky above, and in some way the words ‘sky above’ are obviously everything but the sky above. Words reveals, but they also hide. What about your own self as you describe yourself? Is the story you are telling yourself and other real? Is it again a self without a self? Are you? Words reveal, but there are no substances being reveal, the real danger with words is not to see this. If we think that words reveal a something, a substance, then we get caught into the snare of words, to a world of words without a world.
An idea gathers what we look at with what we look from into one flowing coherent and meaningful whole. It is verb, process, open, a whole vista unfold and as one walks along, the vista opens up, bringing endless opportunities.
An ideology tends to bend what we look at to that by which we look from, or vice versa, it is ‘nouns’, static, sort of mirroring each other being self referential. It is as if the ‘is’ of process is being used as a ‘as’, we look at as that by which we look from, and we look from as that by which we look at.
There is a whole world of difference between these two ‘attitudes’. And a lot of misunderstanding , disgust, spitting, and fighting each other, has a deep connection to the attitude we have. And this has to do with what we see as truth, as real, beyond any possible doubt. Truth is something we kind of stick over our understanding, our world of words, but truth is verb, truth is ongoing, truth is alive, it is real, and it is life. Ideas as verbs are truths but not so much in their content, but as they gather, as they flow, as they cohere and as they are meaningful. Truths and opportunities are almost synonymous; doors opening up. To me, this has always been a very deep source of confusion, what is truth? How can we talk in terms of truths, especially in sciences and religions. I knew since a long time that scientific ‘truths’ were not absolute truths, but contextual truths, truths that would change, as context change. They have more or less value and validity within a specific context and as contexts changes, so is their value and validity, beyond which context it meant absolutely nothing at all. But still, what is truth? We seek for truth, for certitude, not as verbs, but as nouns, not in doing, but in a something, in an end, result, formula or formulation. We seek the permanent, the solidity and rigidity of stones, the unchanging. A permanent truth is a dying truth; it is already on its death bed and it is false. One of the danger of so called absolute ‘permanent truth’ is that it becomes a bias, a prior, that by which we look from and since ‘reality’ is impermanent, change changing, the bias will progressively or abruptly become incompatible with what is. We can see a very good example of this in repetitive blind trail in the pharmaceutical industries, their ‘truth’ wears off, this wearing off of truth is what is usually known as the decline effect, and this effect is omnipresent in most of the statistical world. Statistics has two assumptions which are taken for granted, the first is that reality is for the most parts changeless, permanent and the other assumptions is that events are non-connected or related; dice rolling number one result isn’t related to dice rolling number two result, there are no “influence” whatsoever in between these two events. Recently, this has been proven not to be the case, probability event in dice rolling does follow a power curve, and tend to decline, which clearly shows a non-local connectivity.
We may find very naïve those past cultures who had different views/viewpoints/ ideas of the world, but we are the one that are naïve, for we judge and compare them with our own views/viewpoints/ideologies, seeing them as nouns, as descriptions and not as verbs; not as opportunities for coherence and meaning.
An idea is verbs, an idea gathers what we look from with what we look at into one flowing coherent and meaningful whole. The word flowing is quite important, for ideas are opportunities to see a vista unfold. But one must see this as verbs, once we see this as verbs, then the whole thing just unfold, move, changes, nothing is permanent, rigid. As we ‘go along’, all is and become opportunities, rooting inwardly and branching outwardly.
The idea of psyche is a good example of this, millions of pages have been written, millions more will be written on this topic, on could see this as verb, as opportunities, as a flowing vista. As an ideology, it is already dead, it is changeless, resting on its death bed, the life and truth of the flow has come to an end. To be able to go along requires that I am ready to drop away all that ties me up, ready to be able to drop all that I hold on to. The truth of the psyche has nothing to do with the psyche as nouns, whether there is a thing “psyche” or not, the truth is the Idea; in the gathering what we look from with what we look at into one flowing coherent and meaningful whole. As nouns, it is meaningless, already dead, without life or truth, it is an ideology, a fictional thing by which we look from and bend everything we look at accordingly. The truth of the idea ‘psyche’ has nothing to do with the ‘psyche’ as you look at ‘it’ or even from ‘it’, but as the gathering and dancing of what you look from with what you look at into one flowing coherent and meaningful whole. The idea of the earth being a flat surface is as truth as the one which says it is a sphere, as it gathers what we look at with what we look from into a flowing coherent and meaningful whole. It is an opportunity to look from and at a landscape unfold.
An idea transcends both what we look from, our subjectivity and what we look at, our objectivity, an idea gathers. The idea Canada gathers what you look from with what you look at into one flowing coherent and meaningful whole. Being Canadian is knowing Canada, knowing Canada is being Canadian. But Canada as you look at it or from it isn’t truth; the truth is in the gathering, in the flow, the coherence/cohesion and meaningfulness. Take any country, it is one, one coherent whole, deeply functionally integrated, but where are the physical force that maintain this cohesion on a day to day basis? That force isn’t physical, nor is it ‘psychological, it is the power of an idea whose time has come. It is the same with ideas such as evolution, God, the unconscious, man is a divine creature or even man is a machine, etc. Is the idea Canada better, superior to the Idea France, China, and United States?
Now, are you a Canadian? Are you a Jew? Are you a Muslim? We (verbs) identify with both what we look from and what we look at as nouns; a Canadian, a Jew, a Muslim. As nouns, none of it is truth; it does not even make any sense. As verbs, as a gathering process, or dynamism, as a way to see, to look from and at, it is flowing coherence in action. The truth is, you cannot be something, a Canadian, a machine, etc… for something is nouns and we, I, you, us, is verb, dynamism. The whole thing is dynamism, process; what you look from is what you look at, what you look from gathers dynamically, coherently and meaningfully with what you look at, it is one, one undividable process. This unity cannot be broken and is some kind of categorical imperative such as ‘let there be one’. There is will, or intention within this whole process, intention to look from, and intention to look at. We look for to look from, we look for to look at. It is basic, because what we look for is coherence, coherence is intention, will. To seek for truth, is to seek coherence; and we ‘find’ coherence in our ideas, for ideas are the will for cohesion; the will to gather what we look from with what we look at as verbs, ongoing process. We look for to look from our ‘whole cultural’ referents and we look for to look at those some referents but in a specific way. The world simply make sense to us because it cohere; what we see, experience fit in with that by which we see, look from. Our views of the world cohere with its viewpoint.
Conflicts, incompatibilities are sort of oppositions of directions being crystallized into opposites (nouns) within consciousness. What you look from is centripetal, and what you look at is centrifugal; it is one process, within/without. The schism that we all experience at one time or the other in our life ‘lives’ ‘permanently upstream within all of us, as opposing trends, opposing directions, not of substances, not of things or even situations. This schism is upstream of all that can be experience, all situations, but makes possible all experiencing. ‘The sound of two hands clapping’ is conflicts. Creativity is the creation of new ideas that will tamper the shock and aliveness (centripetal/centrifugal) inherent in all of us by gathering what we look from and what we look at. The “problem” is that this shock or aliveness, is dynamism, process, verb, but within consciousness and because of nouns, it becomes ‘substances’, of two or more substances; opposites. Process is opposition without opposites, within consciousness or even as consciousness and because of words, it then become opposites opposing; ongoing conflicts, which we experience daily as kind of a background humming, as mild depression, anxiety, anguish, guilt, dissatisfaction, etc. Again, we make use of words to grasp, to seize what cannot be grasp, seize, named, described, for it is not something; it is not a feeling, you cannot touch it, hear it, see it, you cannot think it. It is not something, it is nameless, formless. But in our twisted and well under control ‘mind/jail’, if it has no name, it simply does not exist, and in doing so, we turn our back to what is most require and essential in life; reality. To what is water without the word water. What is Canada without the word Canada.
Conflict is basic to human existence, and if we wish to survive as specie; we should start at getting a better understanding of conflict. Conflicts all implies in one way or the other an incompatibility, an antagonist, whether structural, relational or functional. The most intense conflict is when it is accompanied by a sense of impossibility. One could say of complete impossibility or incompatibility. When this happens, we are in a state of shock, in some kind of impasse, where all our previous strategies, such as creativity, alternation, mediation, conciliation, compromises, retraction, entertainment, etc. have failed, as if all attempt at rationalization (attempt to contain) just has no hold to what we sense, what we are experiencing; this is the ‘side way view’ to the schism, we feel something, a deep malaise, a tension, a schism, but nothing seem to contain it, as if we would be swallow by the schism.
Conflicts also have depth, conflict isn’t simply within a situations, for example between two persons, etc, conflict has layers so to speak, it has depth. To try to analyze and solve conflicts strictly on the what we look at ‘level’, such as attempting to gathers as much information as possible on what this or that situation is, is to me to work on very ephemeral ‘level’, and the result/solution will consequently be as ephemeral. Some situations needs a quick fix, and then that is ok. But to really ‘see’ into conflict, one must be conflict in all its depth and darkness. Psychology and psychotherapist in general tends to think that the source of conflict are within some knowable, describable situation, within something which can be analyze, sort out, work on. It may be so in some instances, but for most conflicts we should think in terms of layers of which our habitual seeking for ‘what is the situation’ is only one layer, and quite a superficial layer. What words and consciousness does basically is to contain, when we are asking what the situation is, we are asking to attempt at containing; what are the relevant parts involves, then how those parts relate to the whole ‘story’, like a puzzle; choose 10 parts out of 100,000 others pieces and tell me what the whole is all about. We attempt at making something coherent, something that will contain the parts and how those same parts relate to the whole. A situation is verbs; we attempt at gathering what we look from with what we look at.
We cherry pick both parts and whole and then say this is the situation. But to really have a good understanding of conflict, one must go into the depth of its multiple layers, and into its darkness. To stop this cherry picking, stop attempting to contain the conflicts, stop acting like a Teflon person and constantly slide the conflict away from ourselves. The deeper we are willing to go into the conflict; the less one can contain the conflict, the less understanding and control one will actually feel, the deeper you will go into the conflict, the more desperate you will feel.
We could say that all we experience, all experiencing is downstream to this schism or conflict, to this tension, and experiences and experiencing is done as a way or attempt to contain the tension.
There are more or less two form of conflicts, we could say that one is within and the other without. Without is when for example we have two incompatible but equally valid frame of reference describing the same situation, the particle/wave of the quantum world is a good example. You ask what is it? And then get two or more valid way of looking from and at, but these ways pushes you to see ‘logically’ only one at the time, it is either this or that. A wave isn’t a particle, a particle isn’t a wave. What you look from gathers with what you look at into two mutually incompatible views/viewpoints, but with equal value and status. Without ‘conflicts’ are in between sets (from and at), they are conflicts of perspectives, in between two or more equally valid perspectives or paradigms. The idea ‘wave’ gathers what you look from (apparatus/experience) with what you look at (wave pattern). And the same with the idea ‘particle’. But still, a wave isn’t a particle. Two incompatibles frames of reference for the same ‘context’ or phenomena. Evolutionist and creationist are another example of without incompatibilities in between sets (from/at). They are two ways of looking from and at ‘the world’. We could say that the incompatibility is between two process, two ideas gathering two different or divergent ways by which to look from and at, but as process.
Conflicts within are within what you look from is what you look at, the incompatibility is within; what you look at isn’t compatible with what you look from. And this is a complete impossibility. This is not easy to understand, but it is of crucial importance, for when ‘this’ happens, when what you look from is incompatible with what you look at, the gathering ‘breaks up’, the flow, the coherence and meaningfulness fades. We are then torn apart, split, lost!
What you look from is what you look at, it is one undivided process, but when incompatibilities surges up, unity or the harmonious flow ‘feeling’ is getting broken, becoming a duality (from and at) and that is a complete impossibility for you cannot break unity; it is process. How can unity or the flow be incompatible within its own self? Emphasis is now on what we look from and what we look at as points, as thingness, being separated, distinct, as duality; we have lost sight of unity, of process. There has been a shift, a shift from ‘being’ unity to knowing a strict duality, from harmonious undisturbed flow of unity to an incompatible rigid and quite disturbing duality, right there in between what we look from and what we look at. We do not know unity, unity is being, it is emphasis on the process itself, on the is, on the is of what you look at is what you look from. We do not see (knowing) the process, we are (being) this process (verbs).
When a Neo-Darwinian ‘attack’ the creationist ideology, the what he looks from is still compatible with what he look at ‘within’, his own idea or ideology is not disturbed, it is still process for himself, the incompatibility is without when he look at the creationist idea or ideology. If there was suddenly a new discovery that would threatened his own ideas, then the incompatibility would be within, the gathering (unity, being) what he looks from and what he looks at would be endanger; what was process is under the threat of becoming two, a duality, an incompatibility between what he looks from and what he looks at. And that is an impossibility because what you look at is what you look from. This is one of the reason why most of us tend to hold on to our ideologies, the danger is the collapse of the idea, of the gathering and of being thrown into the abyss of an impossible duality and despair.
The source of conflict being upstream of consciousness, perceptions and experiences, it cannot be pin down to something definite, graspable, specifiable, and I can only attempt at conveying the conflicts in some strange statement, such as being contradictory trends; unity is dynamic, it is verb, to look from is a movement which direction goes toward ‘oneself’, within, and to look at is an opposite movement, a movement whose direction goes away from ourselves, without. Within and without or centripetal and centrifugal trends make up the dynamism. Like in a wave, peaks and valley, it is one undividable unity, you just cannot split a wave in two, it is one. Dynamism or process is oppositions without opposites, what we call opposites are trends, directions. A duality is opposition of substances, of opposites. As dynamism, there is oppositions without opposites, no substances opposing each other, no names, it is one, verb, process. Unity cannot be broken for it is one, not two. When what you look from is antagonist to what you look at, twoness is being ‘felt’ or ‘seen’; a complete impossibility, because what you look from is what you look at, it is process, not of two substances. The shock and shift is one from unity as process to an impossible duality as substances and vice versa. These ‘two’ alternates to ‘create’ what we call mind, consciousness. Ideas are creative adaptive strategies in order to‘re-establish’ unity by gathering what we look from with what we look at into one flowing coherent (process) and meaningful whole. Ideas are the ‘eyes’ of unity.
hi alain,
well, there are lots of words here on your part and on mine, but i think the basic issue is well resolved, and you have described it in terms of ‘what you look at is what you look from’. you are looking ‘from’ an absolute reference space, a world of objects isolated by void, while i am looking ‘from’ a relational reference space, a world of energy pimpled by convection cells. and like you say; This is one of the reason why most of us tend to hold on to our ideologies i.e. we are busily trying to fit every new observation and experience that comes our way into ‘what we are looking from’.
if i am not mistaken, (my search says that;) you are coming from biology, from darwinist biology or should we say ‘mainstream biology’ where biologists are trained to look at each new piece of data ‘from darwinism’. i am not, and neither am i religious and i am certainly not a ‘creationist’, but my views on evolution are post-darwinist like Lamarck’s and Nietzsche’s. both Lamarck’s view on evolution and the outside-inward influence of ‘les fluides incontenables’ and Nietzsche’s views, which conformed with those of Rolph and Roux, see the evolutionary force as permeating the universe, thus ‘evolution’ as in ‘the development of form, behaviour and organization’ is not a process that is split into inorganic and organic realms and in the latter being solely inside-outward driven and suppressed or accepted by the environment (‘naturally selected’).
when the finches get waylaid by a storm and end up on an island in the galapagos, in darwin’s modeling paradigm, the notion of ‘finch’ persists and only the ‘environment’ is different. in relational space, which dates back to Heraclitus, at least, but which in modern science has its roots in the philosophy and science of Ernst Mach (a contemporary of Nietzsche’s that greatly influenced him), there is only ‘transformation’ of spatial relations thus ‘the whole world changes’ when anything moves within it. at the instant the colonizers departed from europe, europe transformed with their loss and the instant they began arriving in the americas, the americas transformed. in fact, the world transformed because in a relational space, the entire space is transformed with any alteration of spatial-relations. the world without rainforests is a world without lungs; i.e. when a tree is brought down, the whole world changes. i am merely expressing ‘change’ in terms of non-euclidian space where spatial-relations predominate over the notional ‘dynamics of objects’. instead of ‘subject animated dynamics’ we have ‘situation animated dynamics’. solar irradiance introduces spatial-relational imbalances in the thermal energy charged atmosphere and convection cells emerge so as to restore balance in the thermal energy distribution (spatial-relations).
darwinism (1859) never did make any adjustments for the arrival of relativity and quantum physics while lamarcks and nietzsche’s concepts of evolution anticipated it. in relativity, evolution is the primary world dynamic that all other dynamics are subordinate to. in darwinism, local, visible, material forms are imputed to have first-cause powers of origination in the development of form, behaviour and organization, or, as i am calling it ‘subject animated dynamics’. in darwinism, the finch’s new behaviour on finding itself on an island rather than on the mainland where the sorts of nurturance available are rather different, … originates within the finch. darwinism attributes the bird’s decision to try some new ‘foods’ to ‘instinct’ (an arm-waving term that whitewashes over a lack of understanding). in nietzschean evolution, the influence is outside-inward at the same time as it is inside outwards; i.e. the dynamics of the habitat have an outside-inward orchestrating influence that shapes the inside-outward asserting behaviour of the finch. relativity won’t allow it any other way [Mach’s principle: ‘the dynamics of the habitat are orchestrating the dynamics of the inhabitants at the same time as the dynamics of the inhabitants are orchestrating the dynamics of the habitat.’] in other words, the finch/inhabitant is to the environment/habitat as the convection cell is to the flow.
now, doug caldwell who is in our informal research circle WAS a tenured professor of microbiology, but because of his post-darwinist views, he was ‘forced out’ of his professorship and forced out of his profession. so not only is your statement ‘what you look at is what you look from’ an expression of our personal tendency, it describes an obligatory constraint within the ‘scientific’ discipline of biology. post-darwinism is not allowed to fill the position of ‘what you look from’.
the darwinist view is a view wherein ‘words’ are the basic referents of the worldview. in the above essay, ‘The ‘Experiential Reality’ Beneath the ‘Language Game Illusion’’ the point that aims to be made is that words hide the reality born of experience. i have put this position out there several times in our dialogue and you have ignored it. the judge who judged jean valjean in ‘les miserables’ imposed the word-based, ‘subject animated dynamic’ view on jean valjean’s behaviour, describing jean valjean’s actions in terms of ‘what he did’. this totally ignores his situational experience. when i say that ‘words hide the reality born of experience’, this is what i mean. when nietzsche says that truth born of reason is mediocre truth, he is saying the same thing. when the captain on the portuguese fishing boat punishes the fisherman who came back empty handed, his interpretation of behaviour in terms of subject animated dynamics, the doer-deed result that the fisherman produces is a ‘mediocre truth’ which denies/ignores the fisherman’s experience [the situation-animated dynamic is which he was uniquely situationally included].
so, while you stated that the judge’s view is just as valid as jean valjean’s, i do not agree. the judge is imposing his ‘subject animated dynamics’ view on jean valjean as valjean shares his experience of being caught up in ‘situational animated dynamics’. the judge’s view of ‘the truth’ is ‘mediocre truth’ as nietzsche would say. our society is in deep dysfunction because of what you say; ‘what you look at is what you look from’ compounded by our culture’s demands that ‘what we look from’ is from what ‘subject animated dynamics’ informs us of, as the judge is doing.
as you also say, people fall into a state of fear and despair when they begin to suspect that ‘what they are looking from’ is being made suspect by ‘what they are looking at’. for this reason, they prefer to hold on to ‘what they are looking from’ and assume that ‘what they are looking at’ that seems ‘not to fit’ does not fit because there is a problem with it even if we are not certain what that problem is.
for example, those of us assuming a relational reference wherein ‘situation animated dynamics’ [transformation of spatial relations] predominates instead of the popular mainstream (‘popular’ and ‘mainstream’ in our ‘globally dominant culture’ since before relativity and quantum physics) absolute (x,y,z,t) reference space wherein ‘subject animated dynamics’ [change due to the actions/interactions of material objects] predominates, … find ourselves presenting our views over and over again and having them ignored by the listener. the listener is, as you say, engaging on the basis of ; ‘what you look at is what you look from’ and it is always possible to reduce the relational space view to the absolute space view. as poincaré said, the two spaces, curved relational space and rectangular absolute space, relate in the manner of a polynomial of degree two to a polynomial of degree one. the portuguese captain sees the fisherman dispersing from the mother ship in the morning and converging on it in the evening. that is the ‘subject animated dynamics’ view which corresponds to rectangular absolute space. the fisherman sees a turbulent flow space in which sits a portuguese mother ship and a bunch of little dory boats like his where the situational dynamics each person is uniquely included in are the predominating dynamic [situation animated dynamics predominate].
this is a choice in looking at life in general.
as many times as i say employ Mach’s principle [the situation animated dynamics or relational space] and propose that ‘the dynamics of the habitat orchestrated a transformation of the finch’, … you are going to ignore that and reduce it to a subject animated dynamics view in which ‘the transformation is driven from out of the interior of the finch’ [moderated by random chance or whatever]. you cannot be in compliance with darwin’s theory unless you reduce the spatial reference in ‘dimensionality’ (as from a polynomial of degree two [curved or relational space] to a polynomial of degree one [flat or rectangular space]). it is always possible to reduce relational space to flat space; i.e. to reduce situation animated dynamics to subject animated dynamics, and that’s what darwinism always does.
doug caldwell taught his students that transformation on the screen on their computers could come equally from ‘moving a black dot around on a white pixel matrix’ (animating the subject or figure on the passive ground), or, from ‘animating the entire ‘ground’ of the pixel matrix’ so that its belly-button was continually shifting. the visual presentations would ‘look identical’ but the latter process corresponded to the hurricane in the flow; i.e. the hurricane is a dynamic form that is ‘inferred’ or ‘induced’ by the flow it is included in, it is not a ‘thing-in-itself’. [as nietzsche says, we reduce the ‘Ding an sich selbst betrachtet’ to a ‘Ding an sich’ and therefore produce a mediocre truth; i.e. dynamics in terms of ‘subject animated dynamics’ rather than ‘situation animated dynamics’.
darwinism employs this process of producing mediocre truths from relational observations and experience. doug was forced out of his biology professorship for overtly suggesting this. the corollary is that ‘natural selection’ is superstition. in response, they (those with authority over whose ideas get recognized within the biological discipline such as the Canada Research Council) publicly imputed that he was mentally unbalanced, made life impossible for him within the profession and ‘bought him out’ of his professorship.
since i am speaking as an individual who needs no endorsement from discipline potentates, i am under no obligation to adhere to darwinism and its ‘looking from subject animated dynamics’ and in the process reducing complex experience to mediocre truths as in ‘what you look at is what you look from’
like others with a post-darwinist view of the world dynamic (the evolutionary dynamic) who understand dynamics in terms of transformation of spatial-relations and accept word-based subject animated dynamics as ‘mediocre truth’ that is nevertheless of considerable and arguably necessary utility, i am used to engaging with others who are obliged by the need for consistency with the orthodoxy of their ‘profession’, to continual reduce observations of situation animated dynamics (the world dynamic the finch is included in orchestrating its transformation) to ‘subject animated dynamics’ (something unknown inside the finch, let’s call it ‘instinct’ directs the finch to change its diet when ‘it is presented with new choices of nutrients’).
you ask; What is Canada without the word Canada? and my response is; ‘it is the world of our situational experience that needs no name’. i could equally ask ‘what is Poland without the word Poland’, or, ‘What is Canada without Quebec?’; i.e. is it still ‘Canada’?. what if we split off B.C. and Alberta as well? how about if all that remains is Ontario and Ottawa, the home of Canada’s Supreme Central Authority; the tabernacle wherein the subject animating soul of Canada is understood to reside? Shall we say that ‘Canada is evolving’ as we do in the subject animated dynamics view of Darwinism? How would the First Nations answer these questions?
respectfully,
ted
Hi Ted,
1-Your are right, there are a lot of words here, way too much words. And I do not think that any issue have been resolved so far. I am making use of this “what you look from is what you look at”, in order to show that we do indeed look from and look at, as absolute reference space. And I do so in order to ‘short-circuit’ the whole thing. What I am trying to show is extremely simple, we have prejudice, bias and these profile a view of a world (a world of words); a Fiktion! If you feel, think, that you are a Québecois, a Muslim, an Aborigine, a man, a something of any kind, then you simply live within a world of words; a Fiktion. All of these ‘things’ rest upon a ‘what it is’ and not on ‘that it is’ of which we cannot say anything about. We are much closer in our views/viewpoints then you think. The only difference being that I do not believe a single word of mine. I paint a landscape (theory, way of seeing) but do not stand apart from my painting and say it is ‘truth’, it is ‘real’ or reality. The painter is in the painting, the painting is in the painter.
Be it an ‘absolute reference space’ or a ‘relational reference space’, both for me are ‘painting’, world of words, dust in the ‘mind’. While I do indeed suspend my disbelief once in a while, and get ‘caught’ in the complete madness of what we call ‘Civilized, modern life’, I do not do so for very long, and wake up as if from a nightmare, and suddenly realize ‘ouf!, it isn’t real, it was only a dream’, most never wake up and think that this nightmare of our own making is real.
Ted, just in this last century, there has been how many wars? How many hundreds of millions peoples have died? What is the root of this? Why do we destroy everything and everyone? What is this disgust in the heart of so many people? What is happening to ‘humanity’? If you really think that you are ‘something, that the world is this or that, (Muslim, German, Canadian, Palestinian, whatever) then conflict is inevitable. What you look from, is (as process) what you look at. This what, if you think it is of something, a thing, an object, an absolute reference space, then you entrap yourself, you are in a dream world, a world of your own making, and mere puppets in the mind. It is this what that has no reality whatsoever. Please do not misunderstand me again! I do not live within space or time, both ‘are’ engender, generated by what you call ‘situations’, (I do not like this word) I prefer the expression ‘évènements énergétique’. In your ‘words’ I would say that situations creates, engender, generate their own time and space. I do not believe in neither absolute space or time. Time being, being space without specifying what this being is or is not I fell to be more appropriate.
2- You are funny, no I do not come from biology, I do not come from no-where! I am a construction worker, a carpenter, with no diploma to hang on my wall, just a few books hanging here and there.
I find the Darwinian narrative to have value in that with Darwin, the occidental world view/viewpoint started to become more dynamic. Before Darwin this viewpoint/view was much more static; it was an absolute once and for all created by god without any change. Darwin change all that, he clearly showed that there is change. Maybe he did not see as Bergson saw, that it is not things that change, but that things themselves are changes, and so should have suggested something like ‘change changing’. I told you, we are not that far apart. Why don’t we change the word evolution for the word creative? And see creativity as permeating the universe? That is the way I see ‘it’. I truly try to avoid getting into the debate between creationist and evolutionist, firstly because I do not feel having the competence to do so. I usually let the rooster fight each other when I see a fight and wait until both gets tired. Just a few comments if you allow me; evolution theory arose from a creationist theory, in reaction to a specific world view/viewpoint, and to some extent both are link reactively one to the other and still do up until now. Another aspect has to do with the conceptual language used to ‘talk’ about genes/genetics/evolution, these concepts were taken in the 1960-70’s from cybernetics and information theory. It is Monod who has revitalized Darwin theory, by introducing ‘modern’ concepts into the original theory of Darwin. Le néo-Darwinisme was born. We see the same thing in ‘brain’ research, for lack of better concepts, we take those of the computer/software industry and now see humans as machines, computer and software. Again, what we look from is what we look at.
I have never really enjoy hearing ‘that given a few billions years, a monkey sitting in front of a type writing machine would write the entire Shakespeare work’, my mind has never really been able to appreciate all the subtlety of this statement. Chance, is another of these words that has many different meaning. Again, we often used this concept simply because we lack other ones, or out of ignorance, or again simply because it is the most simple thing to say when we do not have the time, patience, or information to say other thing. If you were to ask me what chance is, I could not answer you, and I am not so sure that this question actually mean anything at all. So if you think that I am a firm believer in chance in regard to evolution, I am not. I do tend to feel some kind of endo and exo-resonance is at play, and so are intent, creativity and intelligence, but universally immanent, not from the outside, nor do I believe in a design or purpose.
3-(there is only ‘transformation’ of spatial relations thus ‘the whole world changes’ when anything moves within it. at the instant the colonizers departed from europe, europe transformed with their loss and the instant they began arriving in the americas, the americas transformed. In fact, the world transformed because in a relational space, the entire space is transformed with any alteration of spatial-relations. the world without rainforests is a world without lungs; i.e. when a tree is brought down, the whole world changes. i am merely expressing ‘change’ in terms of non-euclidian space where spatial-relations predominate over the notional ‘dynamics of objects’. instead of ‘subject animated dynamics’ we have ‘situation animated dynamics’. solar irradiance introduces spatial-relational imbalances in the thermal energy charged atmosphere and convection cells emerge so as to restore balance in the thermal energy distribution (spatial-relations).) I agree with you but disagree with ‘only’ transformation. There is change changing, but there is also creativity, intent, intelligence. The whole universe is permanently struggling, as it attempts to transcend itself, as it renew itself.
(………in other words, the finch/inhabitant is to the environment/habitat as the convection cell is to the flow.) I do agree, and been familiar with this view/viewpoint since more than 30 years. General system theory, Edgar Morin, Stéphane Lupasco, Basarab Nicolescu, and many other. Since you can read in French, I suggest you read Stéphane Lupasco.
(so not only is your statement ‘what you look at is what you look from’ an expression of our personal tendency, it describes an obligatory constraint within the ‘scientific’ discipline of biology. post-darwinism is not allowed to fill the position of ‘what you look from’.) What do you expect? Why do you think that I am a carpenter? It does describe an obligatory constraint within all societies. I feel that ‘what you look from is what you look at’ is a good start at short circuit some of this obligation and constraint. Kind of ‘oups, what have I been thinking all those years.’ What if what I saw of myself and the world may not be as absolute and real as I thought it is? That is all, nothing more. Thus melting down a little bit of this sense of absolute.
(‘The ‘Experiential Reality’ Beneath the ‘Language Game Illusion’’ the point that aims to be made is that words hide the reality born of experience. i have put this position out there several times in our dialogue and you have ignored it.) No, I did not, I understood clearly what you were saying, you might get very upset at what I am going to say, kind of think that I am stupid, stubborn, etc, but for me, experience is downstream to reality, the real cannot be know, neither can it be experiences. The real make possible experiencing. And each perspectives is a different way of experiencing or Fiktioning. I see both ‘perspectives’ the judge is right and jean Valjean is right. Maybe there are multiple of other perspectives, even one where all of those meant absolutely nothing at all, which is not a superior perspective, but have equal value. The judge is sharing his imposing view as much as Jean Valjean is sharing his, none is a better way of seeing. None are a mediocre truth. I am so familiar with those shift of perspectives that they are now a deep source of contentment and joy, like irony (not sarcasm) where one has to kind of ‘jump’ to a higher level in order to fully appreciate the irony. In the case of Jean Valjean and the judge, of both being right, see it as irony, only one possible way to go; a good laugh! In this sudden flash of laughter (like Poincarré sudden solution to a mathematical problem as he was walking into the train) is the truth, the real, but do not look for any object, reason, content, form, understanding, there isn’t, yet ‘it’ appears!
(….; ‘what you look at is what you look from’ compounded by our culture’s demands that ‘what we look from’ is from what ‘subject animated dynamics’ informs us of, …) Yes I agree, but our ‘culture’ also implicitly and sometimes explicitly denied that we do indeed look from.
(, … find ourselves presenting our views over and over again and having them ignored by the listener. ) Nothing new to me! Some of those listener one day might even start to understand what you are saying , but be careful, for they might get very upset at you for disturbing their sleep.
(‘you ask; What is Canada without the word Canada? and my response is; ‘it is the world of our situational experience that needs no name’. i could equally ask ‘what is Poland without the word Poland’, or, ‘What is Canada without Quebec?’; i.e. is it still ‘Canada’?. what if we split off B.C. and Alberta as well? how about if all that remains is Ontario and Ottawa, the home of Canada’s Supreme Central Authority; the tabernacle wherein the subject animating soul of Canada is understood to reside? Shall we say that ‘Canada is evolving’ as we do in the subject animated dynamics view of Darwinism? How would the First Nations answer these questions?’) You did not understood what I said, right from the beginning, there are no ‘things’, no québec or québécois, but Fiktions. How can we split apart what has never been? What then evolves?
Words strain,
Crack and sometimes break, under the burden,
Under the tension, slip, slide, perish,
Will not stay still.
Ts.Eliot
alain
hi alain,
wow, some good traction emerging out of the wordwork. you are surprising me in a good way.
first a point of ‘accord’; i think you have captured very well (perhaps a bit at ‘my expense’ which is fine) this fact that ‘what you look at is what you look from’. i like your formulation better than those making reference to ‘framing paradigms’ etc. because it personalizes what is going on in our formulating of a ‘perspective’ or ‘viewpoint’. you say;
“([ted says] -so not only is your statement ‘what you look at is what you look from’ an expression of our personal tendency, it describes an obligatory constraint within the ‘scientific’ discipline of biology. post-darwinism is not allowed to fill the position of ‘what you look from’.)
[alain says] What do you expect? Why do you think that I am a carpenter? It does describe an obligatory constraint within all societies. I feel that ‘what you look from is what you look at’ is a good start at short circuit some of this obligation and constraint. Kind of ‘oups, what have I been thinking all those years.’ What if what I saw of myself and the world may not be as absolute and real as I thought it is? That is all, nothing more. Thus melting down a little bit of this sense of absolute.
second, you seem to immediately contradict yourself when you say;
“I understood clearly what you were saying” no, you didn’t. you understood me only in the sense of “what you look at is what you look from”, and it is evident to me that ‘we are not coming from the same place’, even though we are coming from places that have a whole lot in common and which separate us from where many of today’s mainstream viewpoints are coming from. there is no question of ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ here, only an acknowledgement of your WYLAIWYLF principle [‘wylie wolf’ or ‘coyote/trickster’ principle].
amongst the stuff that you ignored of mine (ok, i ignored some stuff of yours, too), is poincaré’s discussion of how people split into two groups in how they deal with infinity (Cantorian realists and pragmatist idealists) which, to me comes into play in regard to your following ‘WYLAIWYLF viewpoint’; i.e. you say;
“you might get very upset at what I am going to say, kind of think that I am stupid, stubborn, etc, but for me, experience is downstream to reality, the real cannot be know, neither can it be experiences. The real make possible experiencing. And each perspectives is a different way of experiencing or Fiktioning. I see both ‘perspectives’ the judge is right and jean Valjean is right.
firstly, ‘no’, i don’t get upset at understandings that others present that differ from mine. bringing new views into the relational soup of my total experience and collection of theories etc. [which i am continually re-weaving into relational webs to see which connective confluences are most coherent] is the essence of my current, continually evolving understanding.
secondly, by your statement, you impute truth or Fiktioning to ‘perspectives’ of two types without differentiating the types of truthing; i.e. the truthing of the Judge and the truthing of Jean Valjean. in my view, you pass over an important insight about two different modes of understanding/truth when you fail to differentiate between the sort of truthing employed by the judge and valjean.
this was a bone of contention between henri poincaré and bertrand russell and they had a public difference over it via their submissions to the Journal ‘Mind’ in 1905 which was never resolved. poincaré objected to russell’s indiscriminate [ambiguating] use of the word ‘perception’ since, to poincare, it could mean either ‘judging’ or ‘feeling’. in my example of the portuguese fishing ships , the ‘perception’ of the fishermen in the dories was predominantly ‘relational’ [feeling] re their situational engaging with the dynamics of the ocean habitat they were included in. the perception of the captain as he was managing the operation, was predominantly ‘absolute’ [judging] in terms of ‘what his crew and what the fishermen were doing’.
‘perceptions’ that form the basis of our ‘perspective’ or ‘viewpoint’ can be based on ‘judging’ what is going on out there or on ‘feeling’ one’s situational inclusion in the continually unfolding habitat-dynamic.
the former is the perception of the judge while the latter is the perception of jean valjean, and the former is the ‘mediocre truthing’ of ‘subject animated dynamics’ as nietzshe calls it, while the latter is the ‘experiential truthing’ of ‘situation animated dynamics’. [i have added the ‘ing’ on ‘truth’ to shift the focus on the process upstream of formulating the viewpoint].
that we mix and match these two very different ‘perceptions’ is at the root of our social dysfunction, in my view. this is why i cannot pass over your statement I see both ‘perspectives’ the judge is right and jean Valjean is right as if we can bin them into the same category of ‘viewpoint’ and ignore their respective upstream ‘truthing’ source. the judging truthing-based viewpoint assumes an absolute space within which we observe dynamics in terms of ‘what things do’ while the feeling truthing-based viewpoint assumes a relational space in which we are in conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation [in which we are included participants in the unfolding transformation of the relational space].
in both cases, WYLAIWYLF prevails, but this distinction between judging and feeling is a predominating effect, and understandings we may glean from judging-based-perception [subject animated dynamics] do not mix apples-to-apples with understandings we may glean from feeling-based-perception [situation animated dynamics].
for example, Winston Churchill supported the harsh terms of the Treaty of Versailles [at the end of the 1914-1918 war] on the Germans. some people said that he was a German-hater, but probably more to the point was that his viewpoint gave precedence to judging-perception as the truthing process; i.e. judging oriented to ‘what people do’, regardless of ‘their inclusional experience’ [their feeling based viewpoints]. other people claimed that the terms of the treaty amounted to guaranteeing a war when the generation of children growing up under the harsh terms and continuous bombardment of contempt of their neighbours reached maturity [1918 + 21 = 1939].
that we are capable of these two different ways of ‘perceiving’ the source of the world dynamic; (a) judging: – in terms of what things do, and (b) feeling: – in terms of experiencing situational inclusion in the habitat dynamic, … raises the question as to which of these we should give priority in directing our own behaviour
Churchill evidently felt that (a) deserved the top priority; i.e. we should base our understanding/truthing of the world dynamic on ‘what people do’ rather than ‘what people experience’. there are many signals of this, including the following;
“I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race, has come in and taken their place.” — Churchill’s testimony to the Peel Commission (1937) on a Jewish Homeland in Palestine
this, what some might call ‘racial supremacist’ ‘viewpoint’ is shared by many in the world and it is implicit that Churchill felt that ‘the land needed to be managed’ [the world needed to be managed] and that the best solution to this need was for the ‘higher-grade races’, the ones that ‘know more’, to be ‘in overall charge’ of things.
there is thus a major ‘division’ of ‘viewpoint’ [truthing approach] in the world, in the sense of whether dynamic physical phenomena are ‘subject-sourced’ [point-source initiated] or ‘situation-sourced’ [spatial-relations induced]. newtonian physics imposes the former by inventing the ad hoc notion of ‘force’ to explain the originating of ‘events’. relativity dissolves the local sourcing of dynamic physical phenomena, envisaging dynamics in terms of a continually self-outfolding-infolding relational space. there are no ‘events’ that are real in this space, nor any ‘local material beings’ that are ‘real’; i.e. ‘beings’ and ‘events’ are concepts we impose on the outfolding/infolding spatial-relational [transformational] dynamical continuum.
only the former [subject animated dynamics] can be concretized in words; i.e. words that reconstruct a picture out there in front of us as to ‘what is going on’, while the latter [situation animated dynamics] is only available to the experience [our experience of engaging within the habit dynamic is like that of the experience of the convection cell within the flow; i.e. our inhabitant-dynamism is transforming the habitat-dynamism at the same time as vice versa. this is not a simple oppositional two-sided dynamism as in your reference to centrifugal and centripetal, where you say;
“Beyond consciousness, what you look at is what you look from, but it is the is of identity”
you seem to be taking the position of bertrand russell in his debate with poincaré; i.e. you are fully investing ‘consciousness’ in ‘vision’ and ignoring ‘feeling’ as in ‘compression that is expansion’ as holds in a relational space. we are conscious of inflating when we inhale and deflating when we exhale and if there were a group of us tightly packed into an enclosure, no doubt the ‘phasing’ of the breathing would be orchestrated by its own collective dynamics so as to spread out the relative phase of the individual’s breathing in such a manner as to avoid a big squeeze that would occur if everyone inhaled at the same time (in phase). this ‘feeling’ of endo-exo conjugate relation is the source of coordination. it is what gives rise to the ‘V’ formation in geese, to hexagonal cells of the bees and of soap-bubbles. what we feel is that our own inside-outward asserting influence [as we inhale] is at the same time contributing to an outside-inward influence [a ‘reciprocal compression’]. that is the way things work in a relational space, as the space we experience life in, arguably is.
you seem to be assuming that ‘what is visible’ is all that comprises ‘consciousness’; i.e. in your argument;
“Beyond consciousness, what you look at is what you look from, but it is the is of identity.; Antagonists are identity, or equivalence, similar as to say to go north is to go south. What you look at is of a specificity, but that specificity is what you look from which just cannot be because to look from is to look from non-specificity, it would be like saying that the part is the whole whole, the whole whole the part. What is interesting in this, is that movement is impossible, although this ‘immobility’ might be illusory, and might be the result of a very speedy alternation between looking from and looking at. It is confrontation, tension, glacially staring at each others, without any kind of possibility of being one or the other, without choices; the one being the other, and the deep sense of the impossibility that one is the other, ‘Here’, in this no-man lands, one is the other and is the impossibility that one is the other, being contradictory, antagonist. The centrifugal is the centripetal and the impossibility that it is so.”
and btw. you never did acknowledge that the root of dynamism is not ‘two’ and as it is turning out, the Fiktion of two is becoming central to this part of our discussion. that is, you start off assuming ‘two’ is possible and then, after you accept that, you speak of the impossibility of the one being the other.
this is upside down. how do you justify your belief in ‘two’? who says that observer and observed are ‘two’? of course i agree that we can’t ‘see’ the whole thing because we would have to be outside of it so see it, but we can ‘feel’ it while being inside of it. the convection cell feels the whole flow it is included in. as mach’s principle suggests we are conditioning the dynamics of the space we are included in at the same time as the dynamics of the space we are included in are conditioning our dynamics.
this is where the poincaré and russell parted ways. russell used the word ‘perceive’ or ‘look’ as if it were one process, while poincaré understood it in two different ways, judging and feeling. so, if we go back to premise we both agree on,
WYLAIWYLF
i am thinking of the L’s [for ‘Look’] not just in terms of judging as associates with visualizing ‘what things do’, but also in terms of ‘feeling’ as associates with situational inclusion in a transforming web of spatial relations.
i.e. we have two classes of WYLAIWYLF ‘viewpoint generation’, one coming from our judgment in the exo terms of ‘what things do’ and one coming from our feeling experience of inclusion in conjugate endo-exo relation terms.
this is relevant to how we understand the origin of physical dynamics. you seem to ‘hedge your bets’ on this where you say;
So if you think that I am a firm believer in chance in regard to evolution, I am not. I do tend to feel some kind of endo and exo-resonance is at play, and so are intent, creativity and intelligence, but universally immanent, not from the outside, nor do I believe in a design or purpose.
so far as i understand your words, i can say that i am of the same view as yourself, although you haven’t gone as far as i would go on the topic of evolution.
[and by the way, thanks for your references to nicolescu and lupasco and the literature in french. i do have a stronger connection with the different flavour of understanding that seems more prevalent in french language inquiry (poincaré is a prime case in point) and i have had email dialogues with nicolescu (years ago) and cite lupasco and his ‘logic of the included third’ in a number of my essays].
so, we are agreed on much, such that words are Fiktions, it seems that we may have some difference in understanding as to our respective interpretations of WYLAIWYLF which may in turn lead to a different understanding of ‘evolution’ and ‘how we relate to it’.
what i would conclude to this point, i can put in a comment relative to what seems like a core commentary by yourself in regard to the ‘equal value’ of the viewpoints of the judge and valjean; a statement which, to me, misses the point that poincare makes that russell missed; i.e. that perception can be either judgment (reason) and/or feeling (relation) based. again, it seems to me that you invest everything in vision/judgement and reason and fail to consider that ‘feeling’ (conjugate endo-exo relational resonating) informs us more fully than reason, which is vision/judgement based and which, as you have pointed out, precludes the observer from seeing himself in the world he is looking at [meanwhile, it is possible to feel oneself in the world that one is included in.
[e.g. if people that are tightly packed into an elevator or telephone booth all inhale at the same time, their form will tend toward hexagonal cylinders. in general, we mirror ourselves back into the world that we are included in as it mirrors itself back into us.]
your ‘core’ [for me] comment lies in this back-and-forth;
([ted] -‘The ‘Experiential Reality’ Beneath the ‘Language Game Illusion’’ the point that aims to be made is that words hide the reality born of experience. i have put this position out there several times in our dialogue and you have ignored it.)
[alain] – No, I did not, I understood clearly what you were saying, you might get very upset at what I am going to say, kind of think that I am stupid, stubborn, etc, but for me, experience is downstream to reality, the real cannot be know, neither can it be experiences. The real make possible experiencing. And each perspectives is a different way of experiencing or Fiktioning. I see both ‘perspectives’ the judge is right and jean Valjean is right. Maybe there are multiple of other perspectives, even one where all of those meant absolutely nothing at all, which is not a superior perspective, but have equal value. The judge is sharing his imposing view as much as Jean Valjean is sharing his, none is a better way of seeing. None are a mediocre truth. I am so familiar with those shift of perspectives that they are now a deep source of contentment and joy, like irony (not sarcasm) where one has to kind of ‘jump’ to a higher level in order to fully appreciate the irony. In the case of Jean Valjean and the judge, of both being right, see it as irony, only one possible way to go; a good laugh! In this sudden flash of laughter (like Poincarré sudden solution to a mathematical problem as he was walking into the train) is the truth, the real, but do not look for any object, reason, content, form, understanding, there isn’t, yet ‘it’ appears!
now, beyond all this philosophizing about the world and how to understand it in terms of how we see and judge ‘what others do’ and how to understand that, it eventually comes around to ‘one’s own behaviour’ and how one wants to direct one’s behaviour or to be guided in one’s behaviour in the continually unfolding world of our experience.
1. the judge’s viewpoint is judgment/reason-based and if he follows through on it, his behaviour is reason-directed.
2. valjean’s viewpoint is feeling-based and he did follow through on it [one who feels inclusion in a web of relations moves so as to transform the dynamics, perhaps to cultivate/restore/sustain balance and harmony] so his behaviour is relations/feelings orchestrated [it doesn’t jumpstart from out of his own intellect and purpose; e.g. if the reindeer move out, the people of the deer move out with them, like the child moves along when his mother moves along, not having ‘individuated’].
there are two very different views of ‘evolution here’. the view in 1. is that change will come about as a result of ‘what we do’, and that it corresponds to the changing local visible material state of things, while the view in 2. is that change comes from how our relations with one another and the living-space dynamic are transforming, which corresponds to the changing nonlocal, non-visible, non-material relations amongst things.
Mcluhan captures this in his statement;
“Many people would be disposed to say that it was not the machine, but what one did with the machine, that was its meaning or message. In terms of the ways in which the machine altered our relations to one another and ourselves, it mattered not in the least whether it turned out cornflakes or Cadillacs.” – Marshall McLuhan, ‘Understanding Media’
the way of Churchill and the way of the judge in ‘les miserables’ is to orient behaviour to change in a local, visible, material sense, while the way of McLuhan and valjean is to orient behaviour to change in a nonlocal, nonvisible, non-material sense. different ‘cultures’ are implied here.
the tunisian judge who sent the police and military out to bring about change in a mechanical what-things-do manner saw this process ‘trumped’ by mohammed bouazizi who knew that he could not generate much reason-oriented force in the local, visible, material terms of ‘what things do’, so he self-immolated as he knew that perception via ‘feelings’ induces change in one’s relations with one another and with the overall living space dynamic, and is nature’s basic way.
like mohammed bouazizi, jean valjean’s act (whether actual or not) continues to induce change in our relations with one another and with the overall living space dynamic we share inclusion in.
so, you may well say, and i would agree, from a rational/scientific point of view;
The judge is sharing his imposing view as much as Jean Valjean is sharing his, none is a better way of seeing.
but only on a superficial or ‘mediocre truth’ basis i would agree with you, since you are judging the respective viewpoints-in-themselves.
but the reality does not lie in the viewpoints, it lies in the actual unfolding dynamic and it is this dynamic that valjean and the judge are both [situationally-differently] included in that inspires the actions that one then tries to capture in words with ‘viewpoint’ being the result.
as lao tsu might say here, the words making up the viewpoint are ‘fingers pointing to the moon’, they are not the moon. as far as fingers go, the one looks pretty much like the other. they are both word-based constructs and since words are Fiktions, they are both Fiktions. this is how i see your statement ‘none is a better way of seeing’.
if we go to where the fingers are pointing, valjean’s is pointing to the transforming web of relations that his feeling experience informs him he is situationally included in and which is inducing him to move in the service of restoring and sustaining balance and harmony in the web [mohammed bouazizi understands that he is included in a tensioned web of relations and if he can burn a hole in it, this may inspire a huge reciprocal response to ‘fill the hole’ [the ‘trou blanc’ of quantum wave dynamics].
the judges’ ‘fingers’ are pointing to the same ‘unfolding’ though this time visualizing change in terms of ‘what things do’; i.e. to a social dynamic which is constrained to moral behaviours as defined by the law and used in law enforcement process. beneath the words that express the viewpoints are very different understandings in either case, thus we get a very different result if we shift our gaze beyond ‘the fingers’ that are pointing to the moon. to the respective moons that they are pointing to [the ‘fingers’ being the ‘mediocre truths’]
in our contemporary society, we are constantly being persuaded to accept ‘fingers’ as ‘reality’ which they are not. in my essays, i have attempted to get the reader to look at the moon rather than at my finger-pointing
ted
Hi Ted,
A perspective is viewpoint/view, it is simply impossible to separate them, my own subjectivity is my own objectivity and vice versa. Emphasis on what you look at ‘is’ I feel being subject or object animated dynamics (without), and what you look from ‘is’ closer to what you call situation animated dynamics, and feeling (within). We could also say that one is an exclusive tendency, toward a specificity, a thing, an object (awareness of). The other one being an inclusive tendency, wholes (awareness as). Flashlight kind of awareness and lantern kind of awareness. I do not see those as things, sides, but as process; opposition without opposites.
-Poincarré discussion of how people split into row group in how they deal with infinity, what about 0, I, 2, x, etc. On this topic, I strongly recommend two book by the same author, William Byers ‘How mathematician thinks’ and more recently ‘The blind spot’. Most of what we have been discussing is present in these books, especially the blind spot. Since you are more ‘mathematically’ inform then I am, I strongly suggest you read both books.
– I see both ‘perspectives’ the judge is right and jean Valjean is right. By ‘right’, I did not mean at all ‘true’, they have equal validity and value within their respective context or boundaries, beyond which they mean nothing at all. Another way to say this is that both are truth, not as individuals, but as what they look from gathers with what they look at. The key is the gathering, the weaving. The ‘earth’ as a flat surface is as true as the earth as a sphere, as these ‘ideas’ gather what we look from with what we look at. A mode of understanding has nothing to do with truth, truth transcend both what we look from and look at, and has no content. I do not imputes ‘truth’ to perspectives or Fiktioning, furthermore there are no types of truthing. Relational space as it gathers what you look from with what you look at is as true as absolute space dynamic as it gathers what you look from with what we look at. I may be wrong, but you seem to implicitly ‘see’ relation space as being an absolute. This is one of the thing that I dislike of Lupasco, he negated Absolutes in an absolute way, but then where does this sense of absolute comes from? From the absolute of course, then we are back to square one.
– the perception of the captain as he was managing the operation, was predominantly ‘absolute’ [judging] in terms of ‘what his crew and what the fishermen were doing’. Discernment and judging are not the same. The Captain as he was managing the situation/operation was predominantly discerning (flashlight mode) …..attempting to assess what the situation was as situations unfold, they are not necessarily absolutes, and so are feelings (lantern light), not necessarily absolutes, but can be so. What you call mediocre truthing arises when, even though what you look at does not fit with what you look from you still insist that it does. The judge is ‘right’, Jean Valjean is ‘right’ and the clerk who took notes of everything and said to himself ‘this is imposible, both just cannot be ‘right’ is also ‘right’.
….upstream ‘truthing’ source… is the gathering.
-that we are capable of these two different ways of ‘perceiving’ the source of the world dynamic; (a) judging (dicernement): – in terms of what things do, and (b) feeling: – in terms of experiencing situational inclusion in the habitat dynamic, … raises the question as to which of these we should give priority in directing our own behavior… Of both and way beyond both. The problem as I see it is that we invest our viewpoint/view as being absolutes.
…….. ‘beings’ and ‘events’ are concepts we impose on the outfolding/infolding spatial-relational [transformational] dynamical continuum….I am I think pragmatic, I am a construction worker, and know quite well that I just could not build a bridge thinking in terms of being and events being concept impose on the outfolding /infolding spatial-relational dynamical continuum etc…. Thus the immense value of object in space and in time dynamic being concretized in words, this way of seeing is also transformational, so are the engineer and architect drawing, which give us a direction by which to proceed with this transformation. But the drawing are not the bridge, we all know this being pragmatic. I do not ‘think’ in terms of this one or that one, I make use of both and beyond both. I think you tend to romanticized a little bit this ‘feeling’ thing, even ‘feeling’ must be doubted at some points. In general, I tend to think that ‘feeling’ is a ‘more’ appropriate way, more ‘in touch with’, more ‘one with’, but it is less “apt” in other field.
We may have another ‘problem’ here, How do you experience the experience of engaging within the habitat dynamics, how can you be sure that this ‘experience’ isn’t a sub product of your imagination, a world of words? I am not saying it is so, I am only questioning. Another way of putting the ‘problem’ would be in terms of are you aware as engaging….. or aware of engaging…
“Beyond consciousness, what you look at is what you look from, but it is the is of identity”…. I won’t go into this as it is extremely confusing, contradictory, complementary, etc. at this ‘level’, kind of a psychotic state, where the dynamic center is being pulled away from you. The reference point of I, being this dynamic center( the gathering) lose its grip, and you are then thrown into an abyss of despair. All I can say, is that you have to ‘live’ this in order for anybody to resonate with it. If you feel that loosing our referents points (dynamic centers) are done with a smile on our face, you should think again, it is extremely painful, distressful, disorienting, etc. This is the price to pay in order to go beyond viewpoint/view; as Eliot would say, it cost no less then everything! Then and only then can we sincerely say ‘but there is only dance’.
and btw. you never did acknowledge that the root of dynamism is not ‘two’ and as it is turning out, the Fiktion of two is becoming central to this part of our discussion…. Yes I know, time pushes me to make some choice, but I will get back to you on that one.
who says that observer and observed are ‘two’? of course i agree that we can’t ‘see’ the whole thing because we would have to be outside of it so see it (yes), but we can ‘feel’ it while being inside of it. ……….. The observer is the observed and the observer is obviously not the observed. Unique but everywhere, unites but divides.
Perception can be either discernment or feeling. And yes kind of endo-exo resonance is at play, it is possible to feel oneself in the world that one is included in, yes but that is still viewpoint/view, in some instances the viewpoint can be for example a bird looking at you, we ‘can’ be aware as the bird being aware of ‘us’. The world can ‘become’ viewpoint and ‘us’ view. The world then becomes the viewpoint, there is a deep sense of inclusive unity in this. These are very common experience, nothing special in this, a shift in the viewpoint as what we are aware as or from. What I am talking about is beyond viewpoint/view. Beyond inclusive/exclusive dichotomy.
…….it eventually comes around to ‘one’s own behaviour’ and how one wants to direct one’s behaviour or to be guided in one’s behaviour in the continually unfolding world of our experience….. Behavior or attitude as inner and outer disposition?
I have to stop here for today, I will attempt at continue tomorrow morning, but it won’t be as long as I am going back to work tomorrow. But let me tell you that I do enjoy very much this exchange, even if I am discrete about it while I write, I do learn a lot.
alain
hi alain,
hope you have a smooth re-entry into your workplace-dynamic, and that you will have some time left for continuing the dialogue, which is opening up, for me, some new angles of looking at things and seeing how others might look at things, that i have not previously considered.
i agree with your WYLAIWYLF observation and in my prior writings, i have often cited wittgenstein where he says that the ‘crystalline purity of logic that characterizes our scientific findings is not what we discover but is a pre-requirement of our investigation’, … and also others who agree that ‘we each live within our own emotional experience shaped worlds’.
meanwhile, i find some of your statements ‘non sequiturs’ where one is being told ‘this is just the way it is’, as with your position on the judge’s perspective and jean valjean’s perspective; i.e. where you say;
“- I see both ‘perspectives’ the judge is right and jean Valjean is right. By ‘right’, I did not mean at all ‘true’, they have equal validity and value within their respective context or boundaries, beyond which they mean nothing at all.”
i find a similarity here with poincaré where he says that all geometric frames are equivalent; none is more true than another. but he doesn’t ‘stop there’ but goes on to say that relational space [non-euclidian space] is less simple than absolute space [euclidian space] in the manner that a polynomial of degree two is less simple than a polynomial of degree two.
now, what is of interest to some people, myself included, is what differences arise depending on whether we go about our business believing that we live in an absolute space versus whether we go about our business believing that we live in a relational space. this was david bohm’s life interest and much like nietzsche, he contended that ‘incoherence’ was the result of putting our orientation to the ‘explicate order’ [absolute space framing] into an ‘unnatural’ precedence over our orientation to the ‘implicate order’ [relational space framing].
‘incoherence’ is where you do something, expecting to get a certain ‘result’, and you instead get an unintended ‘result’ and then keep on trying different approaches but without ever making changes that go so deep as to question/revise your reference framing, so that over and over again, you keep doing things to get some expected result and keep getting unintended results.
this is the situation that bohm saw our society trapping itself in, and this is my experience as well.
so, i agree with you that we cannot get to ‘the truth’ and i agree with nietzsche that ‘there is no truth’, no universal referent, how could there be in a world that is in flux whose evolution we are participants in, in the manner the convection cell is a participant in the transforming energized fluid-world-dynamic. BUT, it is clear to me that there are ‘cultural and natural referents’ wherein we shall be informed us as to how well our actions guided by our WYLAIWYLF perspectives deliver the results that we expect them to, by the unfolding habitat dynamic in which we are included. the judge whose WYLAIWYLF perspective informs him that he can expect a reduction in crime by punishing thieves, may actually experience an increase in crime; i.e. in conditions of tension from imbalance, the dikes may be ready to give way, and the judge’s punishment of one ‘robin-hood’ may spawn a thousand more. the ‘arab spring’ is an example where the president [head judge] refuses to revise the terms of reference and limits revisions to going from patronizing speeches to tear gas to water cannons to rubber bullets to tanks and live ammunition. the actions expected to result in restoring of peace in the streets lead instead to an escalation of conflict.
yes, we can say that the perspective of mubarak and the perspective of the arrested protester are; “’both right’, having equal validity and value within their respective context or boundaries, beyond which they mean nothing at all.”, however, in a practical sense, they will be tested for ‘coherency’ as one uses them as the foundations for actions intended to achieve some desired result.
of course, there is no absolute ‘rightness’ or ‘absolute truth’ in the terms of reference which give the least incoherence in this example based on ‘social coherence’ and we can recognize in this how bully societies, hells angels gangs, religious cults etc. develop their solidarity; i.e. by individuals soon finding that their reference framing assumptions lead to backlash (incoherency) unless they change their ‘terms of reference’ to conform with the ‘world around them’ [in the sense of their inclusion within a social/cultural dynamic].
in the above case, i am speaking of ‘social/cultural’ reference frames that are foundational to social/cultural perspectives, but the same dynamic applies in general; e.g. in man’s engaging with the ‘land’. i.e. each person is, as you say and i agree, coming from his own WYLAIWYLF perspective. that is, his behaviour is informed by his WYLAIWYLF perspective, and in the case where he acts so as to achieve some result, there may or may not be a large gap between the actual result and his intended result.
for example, ancient man imitated the processes of nature, so he thought, by planting seeds with the expected result being the growth of edible crops but his terms of reference were not quite right as he did not include his own actions in the dynamics of soil and thus became a ‘parasite of the soil’, depleting it of its nutrients and being forced to move on every ten years or so [experiencing ‘backlash’ to his parasitic actions or ‘incoherency’ in his conjugate habitat-inhabitant relational dynamic]. only under conditions of soil self-fertilization (e.g. in the nile valley and tigris euphrates valley etc.) were permanent settlements accommodated rather than repulsed by the habitat in the course of conjugate habitat-inhabitant relations.
so, where i have been coming from does not conflict with your views on the arbitrariness of the WYLAIWYLF perspective IN ITSELF; i.e. as far as perspectives go, but my interest is in the field of the applied use of those WYLAIWYLF perspectives in real-life experience within our conjugate habitat-inhabitant relations. our agricultural theory based on the referents you would say have equal validity [within themselves], and i agree; ‘the land belongs to man’ and ‘man belongs to the land’ will deliver the expected results ‘to a point’ but after repeated application all around the globe, we find philosophers making observations such as the following by Frédéric Neyrat in ‘Biopolitics of Catastrophe’;
“In extending his living space in a manner that destroys the space of others, he destroys his own space. Not initially his inside space, his ‘self’, but his outside space, this real outside-of-self which nourishes his ‘inside-of-self’. The protection of this outside space now becomes the condition without which he is unable to pursue the growth of his own powers of being.”
the WYLAIWYLF perspectives that were of equal validity with respect to themselves; ‘the earth belongs to man’ and ‘man belongs to the earth’ have been undergoing a form of nature-based validation/invalidation by way of their respective ability to breed incoherence; i.e. when they are used to guide actions intended to deliver particular results, the gap between actual results and expected results may differ depending on the terms of reference or ‘referents’ used to develop the plan of action. this is where poincaré comes in with his point that while they are both of equal validity, an absolute space frame is simpler than a relative space frame in the manner that a polynomial of degree one is simpler than a polynomial of degree two.
NOW, we are departing from judging the quality of reference frames that we base our WYLAIWYLF perspectives on IN THEMSELVES and/or relative to themselves, … and now we are actually going to try them out and use them as our world views and see if the world agrees with us as to how we understand it, based in our WYLAIWYLF perspectives of it. i.e. we are going to discover the respective ‘degree of incoherence’ that associates with differing WYLAIWYLF perspectives.
ok, i admit ‘degree of incoherence’ is a very fuzzy ‘measure’ and it’s probably wrong to even call it ‘a measure’ but nevertheless our experience does inform us as to how good it feels when we stop banging our head against the wall. it is just a feeling, but most of us would ‘go with it’. of course if we allow it into this discussion it is like allowing a savage into the oxford debates and the rigour of our discussion goes straight to hell, and we are left in the nakedness of our own experience-grounded intuition.
but, if you are able to ‘go with that’ for a bit, i will come back around to my premise that there is a major practical difference between ACTUALLY USING the absolute space reference frame versus ACTUALLY USING the relative space reference frame, albeit that they are, in themselves, equally valid.
the former [absolute space frame] is the reference frame of choice of our globally dominating culture, and when we use it, it informs us that ‘subject animated behaviour’, ‘production’ and ‘growth’ are ‘real’, whereas the latter [relative space frame] which is the reference frame of choice of nietzsche, schroedinger, amerindians, myself, informs us that all those aforementioned concepts, ‘subject animated behaviour’, ‘production’, ‘growth’ are Fiktions and that, in a relative space frame, there is only ‘transformation of spatial relations’ which means that ‘genesis’ and ‘degeneration’ are flip sides of the one dynamic; i.e. ‘transformation’. ‘life and death’, ‘construction and destruction’, ‘growth and decline’ are all dual, simultaneous aspects of the one dynamic; ‘transformation’.
now, rather than arguing about the validity of these alternative reference framings in themselves, we can look to what transpires when we actually employ them as we formulate plans and actions intended to achieve some desired results. at this point, we, as a global collective, have been preferentially using the absolute space reference frame which has us assume that ‘subject animated behaviour’, ‘production’ [farmer john produces corn etc.], and ‘growth’ [the chinese economy continues to grow, just look at its GNP headed northeast]. what is now slapping us back in the face is the ‘incoherence’ and ‘implosion’ that is reflecting back to us, as if our living space is not infinite as we assumed but finite and unbounded as in the relational space assumption, so that the notion that ‘production’ and ‘growth’ are real as in ‘dynamics in themselves’ is coming into question by way of our experience, which is informing us that ‘production and destruction’ and ‘growth and decline’, understood as dual [‘conjugate’] aspects of one dynamic [transformation of spatial relations] are ‘more realistic assumptions’ insofar as we use our experience and the ‘degree of incoherence’ indicator as go-bys.
in not, we could continue with the absolute space assumption and drive the world dynamic deeper into ‘implosion’ as ‘production’ grows to the point that it and its conjugate partner ‘destruction’ are cycling too fast for the natural cycles built into the living space. the imagery only intuitive but it is imagery in which the humans are dancing faster than the natural rhythms of the dynamic habitat in which they are situationally included, and comme disent les français [ou québecois?]; ‘on ne va plus vite que la violon’.
autrement dit “vous ne vous laissez pas emporter par la raison.” [ok, i admit that i couldn’t find this in a google search, but it is what nietzsche would say, if he wrote in french, but what i did find in a google search which ‘fits’ this critique of seeking understanding by ‘pondering WYLAIWYLF perspectives-in themselves’ is “La connaissance s’aquiert par l’expérience, tout le reste n’est que de l’information” ]
as nietzsche says on this question as to whether to let ‘reason’ or ‘experience’ predominate in formulating our reference frames;
“With the highest respect, I except the name of Heraclitus. When the rest of the philosophic folk rejected the testimony of the senses because they showed multiplicity and change, he rejected their testimony because they showed things as if they had permanence and unity. Heraclitus too did the senses an injustice. They lie neither in the way the Eleatics believed, nor as he believed — they do not lie at all. What we make of their testimony, that alone introduces lies; for example, the lie of unity, the lie of thinghood, of substance, of permanence. “Reason” is the cause of our falsification of the testimony of the senses. Insofar as the senses show becoming, passing away, and change, they do not lie. But Heraclitus will remain eternally right with his assertion that being is an empty fiction. The “apparent” world is the only one: the “true” world is merely added by a lie.” – Nietzsche, ‘Twilight of the Idols’
i could summarize thus, borrowing from francophone aphorisms;
‘on ne se laisse pas emporter par la raison a fin qu’on va plus vite que la violon’
of course, if we think of ourselves as independent of the world we live in, ‘reason’ will find ‘no reason’ as to why we should not dance ever faster and more frenetically, like a dog whose WYLAIWYLF perspective is informing it that its ‘self’ is independent of the tail it is chasing, … just as some would say that our current society ‘has its head up its ass’ by having ourselves believe in, and be collectively zombified by the WYLAIWYLF perspective [based on absolute space reference framing] that unlimited economic growth is both a real and desirable pursuit.
ted
Hi Ted,
I do not have a lot of time available to properly answer back.
I must say that I do agree on most of what you are saying. I feel that as a culture ‘mature’, its contradictions, dilemmas, incoherence comes to the surface, and must one day or the other be dealt with. What bring coherence, meaning, purpose are to me ‘ideas’ (not ideologies). As you are now familiar with what I said about Ideas. An Idea is an opportunity to gather what we look from with what we look at in a coherent, meaningful, purposeful, ongoing, flowing, ever unfolding vista. An Idea is generative. Lose the idea (some call it the center), and you lose the coherence, the weaving, meaning and purpose. I feel that the gathering, weaving, is now breaking up everywhere and what is require is to ‘find’ a new idea ‘world view’. My feeling (not reason) tells me that we are not there yet! I must tell you right away that I have not find any so far, and believe me when I tell you that I did search for this for quite a long time. We are in desperate need of Ideas. It will come, from whom? When? I do not know, but I do believe that it will come.
Worldview as Ideas tends to decline with ‘time’, and quite often becomes ideologies, kind of a failure at renewing itself. As ideas ‘become’ ideologies, they can indeed become ‘mediocre’.
Something that I am also investigating these days, pondering as Heidegger would say, is the width versus the depth of our ‘understanding’. What makes some understanding kind of having depth versus as being kind of superficial. Some people knows ‘everything’, but have no depth at all. I feel that some of this depth can only be ‘generated’ in complete darkness and despair.
I am also familiar with David Bohm writings which I enjoyed reading. Bohm was also a friend of David Peat as I am sure you must know. David Bohm and David Peat had a common friend whose name was ‘Allan Ford’, a linguistic teacher who was also a friend of mine some years ago. Allan Ford lived among the ‘montagnais du québec’, learn their language and culture, so much so that he shifted his worldview to a ‘montagnais’ wolrdview. For David Bohm, the ideal society, what he wishes for humanity was very similar to the Montagnais worldview. But the more my friend impregnated the Montagnais world view, the more he became dysfunctional in our society. His worldview made him quite dysfunctional in relation to ‘our’ way of seeing. His ways of seeing became incompatible with ‘modern civilized’ way of life. This was truly sad for me, as I like Allan a lot. Some kind of compromise must be found, what it is, I do not know!
Time for me to go, I must go to work, losing my life attempting to earn it.
alain
hi alain,
if i am not mistaken, the basic relational essences or ‘relational archetype’ in our understanding of ‘world views’ and how they form are in common.
i will try to do some ‘reconciling’ here, to see if it resonates with you, or not.
because i ‘think in ‘spatial’ geometric/symmetry terms’ i will approach the reconciling ‘in that medium’ though i sense you are more comfortable with ‘logical currency’ since i don’t hear about the various ‘structures of space’ in your formulations; i.e. you use ‘width’ and ‘depth’ where i would go to ‘euclidian’ and ‘non-euclidian’.
if i start with the WYLA-I-WYLF [what you look at –is- what you look for] structure, i ‘visualize’ it in terms of a ‘conjugate pair’. the world view as an ‘idea’ that is continually evolving is ‘the is’. the ‘i’ in the middle is the source of evolution of the conjugate pair; i.e. early on, what i look for is limited and therefore what i look at is limited and i don’t see the rest of the world dynamic i am included in. maybe my mother’s face, her breasts and my bottle is what i look at because that is what i look for, but as my ‘i’ develops, the spectrum of what i look at/for grows. the ‘i’ in this case seems to correspond to ‘width’ rather than ‘depth’ in your comment; i.e. the developing ‘i’ is a developing ‘knowing’ of things.
development could be seen as ‘becoming more knowledgeable’. there is more to it, to be sure, but at least on one level, we can describe this evolution of ‘i’ in terms of knowledge. as you point out, we can use WYLA-I-WYLF in two modes; (a) to inform us as to what is going on out there, and (b) to evolve our ‘idea’ or ‘understanding’ in terms of a growing collection of things ‘we can look for’. ideology is when we become a ‘know-it-all’ and everything we see we interpret by using our fixed ideas; i.e. we become like the workman who has only one tool in his toolbox, a hammer, so that everything looks at looks like a nail since WYLA-I-WYLF.
meanwhile, as an infant, before ‘left lobe language’ takes over, one sees the world in all its complexity and nuances. f. david peat cites piaget [who is great at observing and lousy at interpreting, in my view] in noting that children start off understanding things firstly in ‘implicit’ relational space terms (e.g. ‘topologically’) and as they develop [in our culture] they regress to the simpler ‘explicit’ absolute space geometries;
“The history of geometry demonstrates the discovery of deeper and more general levels, Euclidian geometry gives way to non-Euclidian, beneath geometry is topology, and topology itself is founded on even more general and beautiful mathematics. The longer a particular topic has been studied, the deeper mathematicians are able to move towards its foundations. But Piaget, pointed out, this historical evolution is a direct reversal of the actual development of concepts of space in the infant. To the young child, the distinction between intersecting and non-intersecting figures is more immediate than between, say, a triangle, square and circle. To the infant’s developing mind, topology comes before geometry. In general, deeper and more fundamental logical operations are developed earlier than more specific rules and applications. The history of mathematics, which is generally taken as a process of moving towards deeper and more general levels of thought, could also be thought of as a process of excavation which attempts to uncover the earliest operations of thought in infancy.”
don’t take my words literally here [just take them ‘relationally’ or ‘comparatively’], but i am trying to share some topological/geometric based views our cultural evolution.
the way i see the relational evolutionary archetype of WYLA-I-WYLF is the way i see gabor’s transmitter-receiver relation in his ‘quantum physics compliant’ communications theory and the way i see Mach’s principle and the way i see nietzsche’s (lamarck’s) theory of evolution as a ‘process of flow in which outside-inward orchestrating influence and inside-outward asserting declaration are simultaneous and reciprocally complementary. i would label this ‘in conjugate relation’.
in our learning process as a developing child, we can use this conjugate relation in the ‘asserting flow mode’, to ‘declare’ what something is. in actual physical dynamics, we can use it to construct something; i.e. this ‘relational evolutionary archetype’ (REA) can be used to help conceive of evolution in both the physical world and in the world of ideas.
alternatively, we can use the REA inversely to orchestrate the augmentation of the web of relations that gives meaning to a specific item. on first glance this is a ‘two-way street’; ‘context –i– content’ or ‘habitat –i– inhabitant’ or ‘WYLA –i– WYLF’. if the ‘flat plane’ (logically) it looks like a ‘two-way street’ however since it is continually evolving, the apparently ‘empty space’ that it is included in is ‘NOT EMPTY SPACE’ but the evolutionary source.
this begs a stretching of the imagination, as in realistic but subtle ‘thought experiment’; i.e. can you think of each point in space, instead of being a source of ‘being’ or ‘not being’ (‘is’ or ‘is not’), think of it as a ‘circular hole’ that opens up to another world. ok, how about if we have a load of people distributed over the surface of the sphere of the earth (for simplicity, a continuous smooth surface like on a billiard ball). imagine they are all pushing and shoving so that waves of compression and expansion characterize the overall spherical space dynamic. then, if we focus on some circular zone where there is mostly expansion [growing], we can say that that zone is expanding relative to the region outside the zone which is, relatively, compressing (this happens all the time in the atmosphere’s fluid dynamics).
but it was only our focus on one aspect of a purely relative dynamic that allowed us to formulate a ‘subject-animated dynamic’ or ‘doer-deed dynamic’ [‘this zone here is expanding/growing] impression of the purely spatial-relational dynamic. the ‘zone’ that is ‘expanding’ does not have a ‘real persisting identity’, but that is the ‘power of the word/language’ that gives us the impression that something is growing when nothing is growing, there is simply a transformation of spatial relations. this is the mental error we make that nietzsche talks about when we first give a name to something which is ‘made of movement’ as in ‘lightning’ and then use is as the subject that is the cause of its own movement, ‘lightning flashes’. this is the ‘mediocre truth’ that he speaks of. there is no ‘growth’ in the world, there is only transformation of what is already ‘in place’ or ‘in space’.
“And do you know what “the world” is to me? Shall I show it to you in my mirror? This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end; a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise without increase or income … This world is the will to power–and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power–and nothing besides!” –Nietzsche, ‘The Will to Power’, 1067
now, for myself and perhaps you as well, the ‘will-to-self-transcendence’ would serve the purpose here better than ‘the will to power’. that is, in the relational evolutionary archetype, in whichever form we want to ‘express it’ [‘explicitize’ it, since it is purely relational/implicit and its implicitness transcends any particular explicit representation]; e.g. ‘context –i– content’, we can feel within us the desire to grow the web of relations called ‘context’ which will at the same time, give new meaning to every item of ‘content’. we may ‘know what a girl is’ in our virgin youth but such ‘knowing’ is transcended by carnal knowledge of a girl. there is a will to self-transcendence on the part of the –i– in the relational evolutionary archetype instance ‘context –i– content’.
now, i have left the word ‘self’ in this phraseology, but this thing in the middle is not ‘explicit’; i.e. it is not ‘material’, it is the ‘evolutionary force’, both in the realm of ideas and in the realm of physical phenomena; i.e. we could say ‘the will to transcendence is us’, rather than speak of ‘the will to self-transcendence’ which leaves us ‘on the outside looking in’.
now, to make the point that piaget ‘got it wrong’ in his interpretation on concept formation, i want to insert here (for my own record if nothing else) what the russian psychologist lev vygotsky had to say about ‘piaget’s error’ in his explanation of ‘concept formation’ or ‘idea formation’. [ N.B. vygotsky uses the terms ‘spontaneous concept’ for a relational web [context] that gives meaning to a particular element, and ‘nonspontaneous concept’ or ‘scientific concept’ for an explicit item of content]. Vygotsky says;
“These are correct observations [Piaget’s] … At the same time … We shall focus on three of his major errors which are intricately connected. … Piaget attempts to present spontaneous and nonspontaneous concepts as firmly divided and self-contained entities whose interaction is impossible. He fails to see the interaction between these two types of concepts and the bonds uniting them into a total system. … Though fundamentally different in nature, the development of scientific and spontaneous concepts represent two sides of the same concept formation: … Though scientific and spontaneous concepts develop in reverse directions, the two processes are closely connected. … In working its slow way upward, an everyday concept clears a path for the scientific concept and its downward development. It creates a series of structures necessary for the evolution of a concept’s more primitive, elementary aspects, which gives it body and vitality. Scientific concepts, in turn, supply structures for the upward development of … spontaneous concepts toward consciousness and deliberate use. Scientific concepts grow downwards through spontaneous concepts; spontaneous concepts grow upwards through scientific concepts. Vygotsky ‘Thought and Language’, p.194”
the strength of scientific concepts, according to Vygotsky, lies in the child’s capacity (developed through instruction) to use these concepts voluntarily, which he called ‘their readiness for action’. i relate this to nietzsche’s or rolph’s evolutionary flow process wherein the ‘outside-inward orchestrating influence and the inside-outward asserting declaration’ are dual aspects of one conjugate relation. vygotsky continues;
“The strength of scientific concepts lies in their conscious and deliberate character. Spontaneous concepts, on the contrary, are strong in what concerns the situational, empirical, and practical. These two conceptual systems, developing “from above” and “from below”, reveal their real nature in the interrelations between actual development and the zone of proximal development. … “Our disagreement with Piaget centers on one point only, but an important point. He assumes that development and instruction are entirely separate, incommensurate processes, that the function of instruction is merely to introduce adult ways of thinking, which conflict with the child’s own and eventually supplant them. Such a supposition stems from the old psychological tradition of separating the structural from the functional aspects of development. … The entire process of development appears as mechanical displacement of one mentality by another. The child’s own thinking plays no constructive role in this process, being simply, gradually replaced by an adult mode of reasoning. [e.g. as Skinner says, ‘society attacks early, when the individual is helpless. It enslaves him before he has tasted freedom.],This theoretical position leaves no alternative other than antagonism for the relation between development and learning.” – Lev Vygotsky, ‘Thought and Language’ Ch. 6, ‘The Development of Scientific Concepts in Childhood: The Design of a Working Hypothesis.
ok, this is what i see as the problem of our culture in general, as the popular tendency to ‘break apart’ relational/implicit order from absolute/explicit order and once one does this, the explicit is all that one can see. in the above example, we started with the expanding zone or the lightning which is a ‘relative’ concept and using language, we ‘subjectize’ it and make it ‘the subject of its own action’, forgetting about its relational/implicit origin in our experiencing of it. out of the turbulence of darkness we see a jagged flash of light which looks like a ‘thing-in-itself’, like a God gifted with its own powers (Thor, Zeus) that protects against the forces of darkness. this is the role of the ‘subject’ in our language based ‘subject animated dynamics’. we protect ourselves against the darkness of the unknown (what WE do not know) by jumpstarting dynamics from ‘what we know’ from the actions of ‘things’ that we define such as ‘humans’. our popular perspective is that humans are biological organisms with their own locally originating powers of development of form, behaviour and organization driven and directed from their internal biochemistry and neurophysics. in other words, we popularly look upon society as a social dynamic that jumpstarts from the interiors of the participants, … no need to consider the deeper sourcing of everything, including people, in the continually evolving, energy-charged spatial-plenum. that is, we break apart the relational origins of things from the things-as-if-in-themselves, subjectizing them, and re-rendering dynamics as if they originated within the interior of biological organisms.
this is the Fiktion that is currently gripping the world (or a power-wielding minority in the world) with fear, in the guise of ‘anthropogenic global warming’ (AGW). poincaré, who wrote that ‘it is nonsense to say that the earth rotates’ [to impute subjecthood to the earth], must be rolling over in his grave in light of the current AGW hypothesis wherein the subsystems within the system [people], the convection cells within the flow, are claiming responsibility for driving the evolutionary flow backwards, thanks to the power of their technology.
vygotsky and nietzsche, taken together, deliver insight on how such insanity comes about.
firstly, we are taught not to think for ourselves; i.e. new scientific concepts come out one after the other, adult learnings that are imposed on the child so that he does not have to do his own creative thinking and evolve his own understanding, all he has to do is to learn each new hypothesis that is presented to him that will, if he can validate and/or trust it, supplant the previous one. but this is the approach that brings us ‘mediocre truth’; i.e. ‘lightning flashes’. or ‘population grows’ [‘populating is already an action’ that we subjectize into ‘population’] when our experience prior to our subjectizing it is in terms of transformation of spatial relations. as nietzsche says in the above quote [aphorism 1067 in ‘Will to Power’]; ‘the world … only transforms itself.”
so, how does this process of supplanting one hypothesis with another work. we can see it going on today. the scientist and/or politician comes and presents his theory of AGW and he presents the supporting ‘facts’ that he has cherry-picked to support his hypothesis, showing us how the hypothesis develops out of the ‘facts’. we are not allowed to infuse observations experiences of our own. we must decide right then and there whether his conclusions are supported by the facts, or show cause why that is not the case. we cannot say; but your argument is predominantly inside-outward determining because the mainstream scientific paradigm is one in which physical phenomena are inside-outward determined. this is like being asked the question; ‘is it true that the vortex causes changes in the flow?’, … whereupon one might say, ‘yes, but…’ and be cut off because the interrogator was only looking for confirmation that ‘the vortex causes changes in the flow’, … or ‘the humans cause changes in the world dynamic’, and he doesn’t want to hear you argue that ‘the vortex is a ripple that forms in the flow; i.e. it is a conjugate outside-inward influx and inside-outward outflux’, it is not a ‘thing-in-itself’ to which we can impute its own ‘subject animated dynamic’ powers.
the scientist is not interested in such ‘outside of his scientific paradigm’ statements. he is employing the Socratic method of ‘dialectic’ whereby one decides at each step of the way along one’s inquiry, whether one’s propositions are ‘true’ or ‘not true’, and this ‘fits’ with the development of models that are constituted by ‘subject animated dynamics’; i.e. logical-causal models that assume absolute space. but as nietzsche observes;
“One chooses dialectic only when one has no other means. One knows that one arouses mistrust with it, that it is not very persuasive. Nothing is easier to erase than a dialectical effect: the experience of every meeting at which there are speeches proves this. It can only be self-defense for those who no longer have other weapons. … As a dialectician, one holds a merciless tool in one’s hand; one can become a tyrant by means of it; one compromises those one conquers. The dialectician leaves it to his opponent to prove that he is no idiot: he makes one furious and helpless at the same time. The dialectician renders the intellect of his opponent powerless.” — Nietzsche, ‘Twilight of the Idols’
thus, as vygotsky says, in our natural development of concepts and ‘working hypotheses’, the relational [spontaneous] concepts naturally arrive first and provide the context for the scientific concepts. the relational concepts are implicit and are ‘pre-linguification’ while the scientific concepts depend upon them for meaning. BUT NOT IN THE CASE WHERE WE WORK THE SYSTEM IN REVERSE and simply use ‘words’ and ‘definitions’ to construct the concepts without the benefit of developing the relational web that gives experiential meaning to them. in this case, they are not the precipitate of a web of experiential relations, but are in the form of voyeur images. as vygotsky says;
“A child’s everyday concept, such as a ‘brother’, is saturated with experience. Yet when he is asked to solve an abstract problem about a brother’s brother, as in Piaget’s experiments, he becomes confused. … … Another example. After the student explained that ‘those peasants who were the property of a landowner we call serfs,’ he was asked about the life of the gentry in the epoch of serfdom. He answered, ‘They lived very well. Everything was very rich. Ten-story house, many rooms and all beautiful. Electric arcs burned’. This oversimplified development of the concept of serfdom looks more like an image than a scientific concept. At the same time, when asked to define the concept of ‘brother’, the child turns out to be completely captured by the logic of actual situations, and cannot approach this concept as an abstract one. One might say that the development of the child’s spontaneous concepts proceeds upward, and the development of his scientific concepts, downward, to a more elementary and concrete level.”
what we have in natural learning is the evolutionary archetype; ‘relational-experiential context –i– explicit post-linguistification content’.
what we have in unnatural learning via dialectics is ‘mediocre evolution’ by way of a succession of imposed ‘explicit post-linguistification content’ based voyeur images.
one might say that ‘the carpenter’ is stuck in this position where the design and architecture (the relational context aspect of what, in nature, is a conjugate relation) has been hijacked by the ‘architect’ or more generally, by the firm that one works for, which implies, as you say, that;
“I must go to work, losing my life attempting to earn it.
in other words, working for someone else is like giving up the relational context from which the explicit constructs are precipitated from. in accepting AGW and/or the latest scientific theory by merely validating its internal logical consistency, checkout out the logical construction without even delving into the relational web from which the scientist precipitated the selection of ‘facts’ that he needed to ‘build his theory’, one allows his capacity for upstream relational mode of understanding to atrophy. this is what french scientists like poincaré refer to as ‘vulgarisation’, simplifying something to make it more digestible for general public consumption; e.g. he gives the example of galileo’s thinking in supporting the copernican heliocentric hypothesis. it was not a case of galileo simply ‘validating the logic of it’. it was instead galileo’s reasoning that if one supposed that the earth did not move, the observation that all the stars in the sky moved with the same tiny aberrational circles with a period of 365.25 days would have to be taken to be a ‘coincidence’, whereas, the heliocentric model not only explained other previously unexplained phenomena, it removed the need for having to assume such coincidences.
in my discussions with scientists, Ph.Ds, professors, i find that many if not most are unable to ‘go back to this upstream realm’ of relational context from which the now accepted theory had precipitated. the more theory we have developed and the more we accept it by simply validating its internal logic for consistency, the more we distance ourselves from understanding the world in relational terms, and the more our behaviour is animated by ‘reason’, by the ‘learned-by-rote’ theories we have acquired through education and through the media propagated vulgarisations. the result is that we ignore such warnings as;
‘on ne se laisse pas emporter par la raison a fin qu’on va plus vite que la violon’
finally, to close out this note, i want to go back to f. david peat’s interpretation of piaget’s observation, and expand it from ‘mathematicians’ to our culture in general; i.e.
The history of mathematics [the history of our culture], which is generally taken as a process of moving towards deeper and more general levels of thought, could also be thought of as a process of excavation which attempts to uncover the earliest operations of thought in infancy.”
that is, it seems to me as if we are moving from our culturally predominating ‘post-linguification mode of understanding’ back towards ‘pre-linguification mode of understanding’, which in my terms would equate to ‘swapping out absolute space’ in our reference framing and putting ‘relational space’ in its place. from ‘relational space’ we can derive ‘absolute space’ by the process of time-based differentiation (dx/dt). that is the advantage of starting with a space that is less simple in the manner that a polynomial of degree two [curved] is less simple than a polynomial of degree one [linear]. this equates to conceiving of the world as a ‘being’ [as a subject] that ‘itself changes’ as a function of ‘time’. in order for this to be measurable, the world would have to be inside a fixed ‘reference frame’ and have a ‘persisting identity’, otherwise we could not impute ‘its change’ to ‘it’. in this case the world at ‘time t1’ would have to be entirely responsible [to hold within it all the requisite causal agencies] to determine the world as ‘time t2’. this is the ‘Laplacian’ world view which appears to be the most popular extant world view. this is where theories such as AGW come from. as poincare puts it, this view reduces the dynamics of physical phenomena to ‘differential equations’;
“Origin of Mathematical Physics.—Let us go further and study more closely the conditions which have assisted the development of mathematical physics. We recognise at the outset that the efforts of men of science have always tended to resolve the complex phenomenon given directly by experiment into a very large number of elementary phenomena, and that in three different ways. First, with respect to time. Instead of embracing in its entirety the progressive development of a phenomenon, we simply try to connect each moment with the one immediately preceding. We admit that the present state of the world only depends on the immediate past, without being directly influenced, so to speak, by the recollection of a more distant past. Thanks to this postulate, instead of studying directly the whole succession of phenomena, we may confine ourselves to writing down its differential equation; for the laws of Kepler we substitute the law of Newton.” – Henri Poincaré, ‘Science and Hypothesis’
the mathematicians have dug deeper, going from the geometry of invariable solids to topology which is solely spatial-relations based and looks beyond particular forms; e.g. the topology of a doughnut and a worm and a human and convection cell are all toroidal flows, outside-inward flow that intrudes into itself.
the world may not have found its new idea yet, but it seems to me that the development of NGOs and global affiliations is beginning to carry us beyond the ‘centre-based’ subjectification that we have been imposing via sovereign statism, authoritarianism etc. an NGO is a web of relations (like the internet) that wraps over and around the spherical surface on the sphere of the earth and which therefore ‘has no centre’ or ‘is its own centre’ as in the earlier example which dissolved the notion of an ‘expanding zone’, exposing it as a conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation. global centre-less webs of relation could be based on astrological sign associations or on the clan system of the amerindians , not necessarily ‘doing away with the centre-based affiliations but subordinating them.
anyhow, i am about to shut this writing down and watch the international junior hockey game between russia and canada. the announcers speak openly of the ‘hatred’ of the canadians for the americans and vice versa, and each side wants to see its side win, but yet they are not inspired if one side ‘overwhelms’ the other; i.e. they want nail-biting drama and suspense that brings out the best in both teams. once again we have this ‘centre’ in the middle of opposition which is not to do with a simple balance point where the scales will tip one way or the other, it is a hole into the realm of evolutionary will where the evolutionary will induces spirited behaviour on the part of both teams. this is what people really want to experience since it seems to include everyone within its force, as nietzsche suggests. a ‘win’ in the simple, literal win/lose terms of A’s score being greater than B’s is not it. therefore, the supportive audiences on both sides should respect the process and the opposition since without them, the invoking of this evolutionary will is not, in this situation, possible. the question of win or loss is incidental, not paramount as in ‘darwinism’.
ted
Hi Ted,
During the week, when I work, I have about 1:30 hour of ‘free’ time available every day. To properly read, digest and answer back would take me at least 3 hours. And so will not be able to answer back properly.
Once more, I strongly suggest you get a hold of William Byers books, ‘Euclidian’ and ‘non-Euclidian’ are one of the many topics of his books.
For me, the ‘world’ isn’t mathematical. It is ‘presence’.
Me looks from ‘me’, and me looks at ‘I’. Me is first, but you cannot say anything about ‘me’.
………f. david peat cites piaget [who is great at observing and lousy at interpreting, in my view] in noting that children start off understanding things firstly in ‘implicit’ relational space terms (e.g. ‘topologically’) and as they develop [in our culture] they regress to the simpler ‘explicit’ absolute space geometries…. Yes, that is the way I think ‘it’ works, but the explicit is not a regression, it is not a question of either this one or that one. It is Bohm who said in one of his books ‘ I think we have it upside down when we say that the ‘real’ is un-ambiguous. For Bohm, ‘reality’ is ambiguous. One could say that there is an ambi-determination to ‘it. It goes even further then this, for one of the faces of this ambiguity affirm there are no ambiguities, but the face that says there is no-ambiguity is itself ambiguous.
To look for a context is to look for to look from, which is another way of saying that we look for to look at. Can you see the ambiguity of this statement?
…..but it was only our focus on one aspect (that is what I have been saying right from the start; we over emphasize on what we look at) of a purely relative dynamic that allowed us to formulate a ‘subject-animated dynamic’ or ‘doer-deed dynamic’ [‘this zone here is expanding/growing] impression of the purely spatial-relational dynamic. the ‘zone’ that is ‘expanding’ does not have a ‘real persisting identity’, but that is the ‘power of the word/language’ that gives us the impression that something is growing when nothing is growing, there is simply a transformation of spatial relations (you are still within a world of words; ‘transformation of spatial relations’ is an abstraction, show me is concrete, I am not saying that it does not have validity, on the contrary, as a viewpoint/view, I find this ‘great’ as it may soften this sense of absolute)….. . this is the mental error we make that nietzsche …. It is not a mental error, it is a different way of experiencing.
. ‘context –i– content’,….. context is content, content is context!
……now, i have left the word ‘self’ in this phraseology, but this thing in the middle is not ‘explicit’; i.e. it is not ‘material’, it is the ‘evolutionary force’, both in the realm of ideas and in the realm of physical phenomena; i.e. we could say ‘the will to transcendence is us’, rather than speak of ‘the will to self-transcendence’ which leaves us ‘on the outside looking in’…. I think you are right here, I will have to think about this a little more, let it sink in.
I am going to order the book by Vygotsky, as it sounds very interesting. For me Ideas are not concepts, ideas sound more similar to Vygotsky ‘spontaneous concepts’ in a realtion web, and concept as ‘scientific concept’. …. Though fundamentally different in nature, the development of concept and spontaneous ideas represent two sides of the same… Quite similar to my own way of seeing things. But I am not sure they grow downward, maybe, I just do not know! Have you ever heard of ‘default network/task positive network’ in neurological research?
Time to go again, but be sure I will read the rest, this is very interesting!
alain
hi alain,
it seems as if i have more time for writing than you, …so, sorry about loading you up with stuff. i will try to be ‘briefer’ [it is a major challenge for me, though].
you say; For me, the ‘world’ isn’t mathematical. It is ‘presence’.
1. to me mathematics is a symmetry-based language useful in modeling physical phenomena that can help us to gain insights about ourselves and the world that are necessarily ‘incomplete’. i am not trying to discover the total meaning of the universe, i have been investigating the source of incoherence in the social dynamic, in my self and others, and in so doing, i affirm the findings of nietzsche and others and am trying to share this in ‘some different ways’ and different words, because i can see how certain ‘errors’ tie to conflict, war, incoherence. meanwhile, there is always yet another, deeper layer of inquiry that presents itself, kind of like the patterns in fractal geometry that go on forever [e.g. mandelbrot set] but at some point, it seems to me, some of the identified ‘fictions’ that generate incoherency such as the INCOMPLETENESS [mediocrity of truth] in the common mode of understanding that i am calling ‘subject animated dynamics’, needs to be brought out and acknowledged.
2. the fact that we are using ‘subject animated dynamics’, a superficial re-rendering of the dynamics of our experience, to ground our world view and behaviour is just one of the ways of expressing how incoherence is arising in our social dynamic. mcluhan has homed in on this same source of incoherency and describes it in terms that we have unnaturally elevated visual space above acoustic space, and poincaré would say that we are using theory to correct our experience [which is close to your… ‘what you look at is what you look from’]; i.e. we hold relational patterns in our mind whereby, if we find a couple of the components, we can fill in the rest; e.g. the wife combines her husband’s late nights at the office and the smell of perfume on his white shirt, or othello finds desdemona’s handkerchief that was special to the two of them, in the possession of another man, … the raunchiest images come quickly flowing to mind to fill in the rest of the pattern, even if the smell of perfume came when the husband was sampling perfumes to buy one for his wife, and even when desdemona’s handkerchief had been stolen and planted on the other man by othello’s trusted, but jealous/ambitious friend. incoherence and tragedy is often the result of ‘what you look at is what you look from’.
3. underlying everything i have said in 1. and 2. above is ‘relational patterns’ and ‘symmetries’ as surely as one sees ‘bilaterally mirrored symmetry’ in the human form. there are symmetries such as earth-sky, male-female and their are dynamic symmetries as well as static; e.g. the linear ‘in-and-out’ of sexual relations can at the same time be seen as a voluminous ‘expansion’ and ‘contraction’ of the anti-symmetric plug and socket. symmetry is getting ‘pretty basic’ to our thought based understanding;
‘Symmetry, as wide or as narrow as you may define its meaning, is one idea by which man through the ages has tried to comprehend and create order, beauty, and perfection.’… “Symmetry itself is one of the most fundamental and fruitful concepts of human thought [Hermann Weyl]… By symmetry we mean an invariance against change: something stays the same, in spite of some potentially consequential alternation. Mirror symmetry, that is invariance against ‘flipping sides,’ is perhaps the most widely noticed symmetry. Nature built many of her organisms in nearly symmetrical ways, and most fundamental laws of physics, such as Newton’s law of gravitation, have an exact mirror symmetry: there is no difference between left and right in the attraction of heavenly (and most earthbound) bodies. However, the nonconservation of parity in radioactive decay— that is, the violation of point symmetry in the ‘weak’ interactions— has finally taught even the physicists to take the distinction between right and left seriously. Another important symmetry is invariance with respect to geometric translation. Our trust in invariance under transposition in space and time, is, in fact, so unlimited that we believe that the laws of nature are the same all over the cosmos— and that they have been, and will remain so, for all time. An even more astounding symmetry is the exact identity of like elementary particles. There is simply no difference between an electron here and an electron there— on a distant star, for example. [Manfred Schroeder].
as previously mentioned, ‘mathematicians’ and evidently people in general, divide into two different ‘beliefs’ as to whether the invariance of symmetry is ‘real’ or ‘idealization’. poincaré refers to the former as ‘Cantorian realists’ and the latter [which includes himself and myself] as ‘pragmatist idealists’; i.e. the latter considers symmetries to be idealizations that are very useful. symmetries are foundational to mathematics, and having declared myself as ‘pragmatist idealist’, i in effect confirm that, like you, i do not see the world as being mathematical, however, thought and language certainly are, and therein lies an ‘idealization barrier’ that it is difficult to get beyond. as wittgenstein says, ‘the crystal purity of our logic is not the result of our investigation but the requirement we impose in going into investigative mode’; i.e. it puts us into ‘what we look at is what we look from’ mode.
our dialogue, it seems to me, seeks to find words that allude to understanding that requires going beyond the ‘idealization barrier’. this need to go beyond the invariant symmetry of opposites is ubiquitous. i have tried to ‘trap it’ inside of what might be called the ‘relational evolutionary archetype’; e.g. in the opposing notions of ‘the one and the many’ which has troubled philosophers forever, and which nietzsche explains by way of the ‘will to power’ and the übermensch. the relational archetype is beyond particular instances, but we need something tangible to ‘talk about it’ and so lets examine ‘context’ and ‘content’ and/or ‘nature’ and ‘nurture’, and what we are talking about here and all the time are ‘symmetries’. the apparent dilemma crops up when we ask; ‘does context determine content or does content determine context?’, … or, … ‘does habitat determine inhabitants or do inhabitants determine habitat?’ one is only stymied if one regards content and context, habitat and inhabitant as ‘things-that-be’ [circular reasoning since the action is already built into the things and the we add it in again to make it appear as if the subject is the source of the action, as in ‘lightning flashes’]
but there is another way to understand this symmetry and it is in the presence of continuing evolution. i often use the example of the convection cells in the flow because ‘storms’ and ‘hurricanes’ and ‘tornadoes’ are familiar phenomena that we have all, in one form or another, been EXPERIENTIALLY INCLUDED IN, and this makes us aware of something ‘beyond’ the two subjects of ‘flow-habitat’ as ‘context’ and ‘convecting-cell-inhabitants’ as content, because we are aware of how hot and humid it usually is, when the ‘contents’ or ‘inhabitants’ are out and about; i.e. we are not just talking about the relational symmetry between ‘context’ and ‘content’, we are talking about something in the background that is an invisible but deeper source of the measurable dynamics of flow-and-cell, an ‘invisible energizing spatial medium’ that fuels the evolution of the context-content relation. if ‘i’ is the ‘thinker’ that is looking at the flow and the flow-cells, we get the following;
‘context –i– content’,….. context is content, content is context.
and in our ‘thinking mode’ we may ask the question as to whether context defines content or content defines context. but we are capable of more than ‘thinking’ about the symmetry of this relationship; i.e;
‘/c/o/n/t/e/x/t/ /–/ii/–/ /c/o/n/t/e/n/t/’
in this case, the background is not ‘empty space’ but is instead ‘energized’ (the flow is enriched with thermal energy) and the ‘i’ is not just a ‘judging i’, but a ‘feeling i’, so let’s symbolize him as ‘ii’.
this observer-experient, ‘ii’ understands that the ‘real question’ is not about the relationship between two types of ‘beings’; a ‘static context’ and a ‘static content’ but includes an influence beyond both, an influence that Lamarck termed ‘les fluides incontenables’, the ‘fields’ which could contain the context and the content [the flow and the flow-cells] but which could not themselves be contained.
both ‘flow’ and ‘flow-cell’, ‘habitat’ and ‘inhabitant’ are physical, visible, and material and therefore ‘locally measurable’ but ‘les fluides incontenables’ are ‘non-local, non-visible and non-material’, but which nevertheless impress/inform/condition our feeling experience.
note that this example is ‘spatial-relational’ i.e. the background space is a participant in these dynamics, along with the ‘context’ and ‘content’.
with this example in hand, wherein we can questions with or without comprehending the participation of space, let’s go back to my opening statement about ‘subject animated dynamics’ and ‘situation animated dynamics’ and my proposition that dynamics understood in terms of relational space ‘transformation’ [situation-animated-dynamics] predominate over dynamics understood in terms of absolute space ‘mechanics’ [subject-animated-dynamics] in the manner that a polynomial of degree two is less simple than a polynomial of degree one [poincaré], … and to your ‘opening remark’ which i agree with but which i find to be ‘incomplete’ in an important way that involves ‘symmetry’. you seemed to suggest that my choice of one over the other was by way of Aristotelian logic and i am saying that that is not the case. aristotelian logic concerns ‘things that be’ as in ‘context’ and ‘content’ but my ‘either/or’ was between acknowledging space as a participant or not (whether to simply ‘observe’ in the sense of ‘judging’ as ‘i’ did, or to both ‘observe’ in the sense of ‘judging’ and ‘experience’ in the sense of ‘feeling’ as ‘ii’ did; i.e. you said;
“Aristotle logic is the logic of either this or that, either it is subject/object animated or it is situation/relation animated. In our ‘mind’ and because of Aristotle logic, it is either one or the other. What I am suggesting is that both have equal value and validity within their own respective context/perspective/way of seeing, beyond which they mean absolutely nothing at all. Somehow, there are no situations outside of language, in the very same way that there are no objects outside of language. The shift you are ‘asking for’, is a shift in emphasis, it is not a matter of either this or that, but of emphasis of one over the other one. What I feel is require is to go beyond both. To ‘awaken’ the ‘mind’ in such a way as it rest upon nothing at all, no parts/subject (as object with will)/objects, no relations or situations.”
my objection is;
(a) while you are setting up a ‘strawman’ that implies that i am using Aristotelian logic and then you demolish this strawman, my claim of the one predominating over the other was not based on Aristotelian logic. … and,
(b) while you claim that both ‘subject animated dynamics’ and ‘situation animated dynamics’ “have validity within their own respective context/perspective/way of seeing, beyond which they mean absolutely nothing at all”, … i claim that the two are related in that one is a more comprehensive and the other a less comprehensive way of understanding the same physical phenomena, in the manner that ‘ii’ [the thinking and feeling observer/experient] is understanding more comprehensively than ‘i’ [the thinking observer].
i have shared the example of the ‘V’ formation of wildgeese and/or a group of bikers speeding down the freeway and my experience has been that people in general have difficulty in suspending the notion that ‘the participants’ are determining the ‘V’ shape [subject animated dynamics], whether it is the ‘ideal geometry’ of the ‘V’ that organizes the participants or the participants constructing the ‘V’. that is, they have difficulty in understanding this phenomenon in terms wherein space is a participant and where the ‘V’ is a ‘resonance pattern’ that emerges in the conjugate habitat-inhabitant engaging. if one leaves space as a non-participant and describe this phenomenon in terms of ‘parts’ and ‘whole’ (content and context), one comes up with fine words that assume ‘subject animated dynamics’ like ‘cooperation’, and this, to me, is a classic case of ‘what you at is what you look from’ of our dysfunctional culture.
my inquiry into ‘exceptionally performing teams’ exposed that these teams were using the ‘ii’ approach like the wildgeese, rather than ‘i’ approach which is the standard for teams and the standard team is dysfunctional in that by being internally directed as in subject animated dynamics, it generates turbulence or ‘reciprocal compression’ along its interface with the environment. meanwhile the standard team sees the turbulence as a ‘challenge’ that it has to overcome, so it seeks to improve internal ‘cooperation’ as a means of increasing the horsepower to overcome the turbulence. the exceptional teams, on the other hand, let the environmental dynamic serve as an outside-inward orchestrating influence to put their inside-outward asserting dynamics together with, in resonant relational engaging.
in trying to share this understanding with management, the managers would inevitably, in my [limited] experience, misinterpret the team dynamics by describing the work the team did in terms of ‘who did what’ [subject animated dynamics] and asking me [like the judge asked jean valjean]; ‘is this true or not’,… and i would answer, ‘yes, but…’ but they were not interested in hearing out the ‘but’ which sounded to them like smoke and mirrors, and i chose not to say; ‘it is true what you say, but it is a mediocre truth’. so they promoted those who they saw as ‘the strongest contributing team members’ and the exceptionally-performing teams, which were rare items that had evolved on their own, were all broken up, and while the members of these exceptional teams understood, intuitively, the approach that had worked so well and been so enjoyable, it was impossible to rekindle it within a team that had a conventional ‘supervisor’ whose approach was to ‘encourage internal cooperation and solidarity’ and construct a strong team effort in an inside-outward asserting sense.
so, in this anecdote on ‘team behaviour’, would you claim that both ‘subject animated dynamics’ [space is a non-participant] and ‘situation animated dynamics’ [space is a participant] “have validity within their own respective context/perspective/way of seeing, beyond which they mean absolutely nothing at all”, … because i am claiming that the two are related in that one is a more comprehensive and the other a less comprehensive way of understanding physical phenomena, in the manner that ‘ii’ [the thinking and feeling observer/experient] is understanding more comprehensively than ‘i’ [the thinking observer].
ted
Hi Ted,
I am like you, when writing, I can write 20 pages just in a few hours, but since a few months, I can’t, way too many things to do and not enough time to do them. I did not even had the time to order the book from Vigotsky.
!…..because i can see how certain ‘errors’ tie to conflict, war, incoherence. meanwhile, there is always yet another, deeper layer of inquiry that presents itself, kind of like the patterns in fractal geometry that go on forever [e.g. mandelbrot set] but at some point, it seems to me, some of the identified ‘fictions’ that generate incoherency such as the INCOMPLETENESS [mediocrity of truth] in the common mode of understanding that i am calling ‘subject animated dynamics’, needs to be brought out and acknowledged…. Kind of fractal like pattern is what I mean by conflict (incoherence) having depth or layers, we usually interpret conflict as within situations, some are, but most have layers, and as one goes deeper and deeper within those layers (fractal), one will encounter conflict or incoherence in kind of pre-lingual aspect without any form. This to me is the root of conflict. I feel that one has to go into this pre-lingual incoherence in order to transcend it, then, conflict and incoherence becomes creative tension.
2. …..incoherence and tragedy is often the result of ‘what you look at is what you look from’…..Yes, and there are at least two kinds of ways by which we experience these conflict; without and within. The example you gave, is a without conflict, conflict between two set, two divergent way of looking from and at the world. WYLFIWYLA is coherent ‘internally’ but is ‘incorent externally to another wylfiwyla. The second way is a within conflict or incoherence; wylfiswyla being incoherent internally, and this is a complete impossibility.
…… i do not see the world as being mathematical,… But most mathematicians think it is, furthermore they also think that logic is within mathematics, for me logic ‘encadre’ mathematical thinking, furthermore this logic is mostly Aristote logic.
….acknowledging space as a participant or not , I do acknowledge space as both participant and observer; periphery is as much observer/participant as is the center. For they are one.
… i claim that the two are related in that one is a more comprehensive and the other a less comprehensive way of understanding the same physical phenomena, in the manner that ‘ii’ [the thinking and feeling observer/experient] is understanding more comprehensively than ‘i’ [the thinking observer]….. That is why I appreciate this dialogue, you push me in re-visiting my own prejudice.
……..the ‘V’ is a ‘resonance pattern’ that emerges in the conjugate habitat-inhabitant engaging. if one leaves space as a non-participant and describe this phenomenon in terms of ‘parts’ and ‘whole’ (content and context), one comes up with fine words that assume ‘subject animated dynamics’ like ‘cooperation’, and this, to me, is a classic case of ‘what you at is what you look from’ of our dysfunctional culture….. I think I am starting at getting a better understanding of what you are talking about, it is still not fully articulated in my mind, but feel it is coming. ‘ii’ if I understand you correctly would be ‘space as participant’, and ‘I’ ‘subject animated dynamics’. ‘ii’ is in this instance would be what I mean by ‘me’. This reminds me of a Sufi text that my wife gave me yesterday afternoon as I was coming home from work.
Listen,
O dearly beloved!
I am the reality of the world, the centre of the periphery,
I am the parts and the whole.
I am the will established between Heaven and Earth,
I have created perception in you only so that I may be the object of my perception
If then you perceive me, you perceive yourself.
But you cannot perceive me through yourself.
It is through my eyes that you see me and see your self, (ii/me)
Through your eyes you cannot see me. (i)
……would you claim that both ‘subject animated dynamics’ [space is a non-participant] and ‘situation animated dynamics’ [space is a participant] “have validity within their own respective context/perspective/way of seeing, beyond which they mean absolutely nothing at all”, … because i am claiming that the two are related in that one is a more comprehensive and the other a less comprehensive way of understanding physical phenomena….. This way of seeing might be more appropriate in many instances, and may be ‘less’ appropriate in other. I feel you do have something of great value, which I have not fully integrated yet, by this, I mean that I have to integrate it within my own mythology or maybe not, I do not know yet; when one really ‘catch’ the idea, it simply flows, gathering what we look from with what we look at, there is a ongoingness, a whole new vista opening up, I have not ‘catch’ it yet in this sense. One of the thing which I do not remember having written, is that …..beyond which they mean absolutely nothing at all… in that beyond is the unbound meaningful. One of the important point you make concern ‘I’, ‘I’, this sense of self whose sole purpose is its own self, self (or subject) animated dynamics it seems to me is seen as an absolute because of this sense of self ‘I’. ‘i’, I see as the root ‘problem’, take it away and a whole ‘new’ world opens up, but one must go for the root without killing the flower.
alain
hi alain,
i think you have captured ‘the problem’ as well as it can be captured where you say;
‘i’, I see as the root ‘problem’, take it away and a whole ‘new’ world opens up, but one must go for the root without killing the flower.
together with the sufi text, which to me is at the same time very ‘nietzschean’, i feel like we are on the same page.
in the way i think about these things [i realize that you may not get the same thing out of the words i use] there is no periphery to a point on a flat surface, but if the surface curves, then there is a periphery. imagine if the moon were a cube then the sun would either shine on one of its surfaces or not [aristotle’s logic of the excluded third]. but being that the moon’s surface is curved, we can say that the sun ‘does and does not’ shine on it (heraclitus-speak). this is the logic of stéphane lupasco, the logic of the included third and if you put ‘lupasco’ into the ‘search’ field on my website, you will find a choice phrase or two from him.
imagine that we attach enough inflated balloons of various colours to the surface of a sphere to completely cover it; i.e. so that the balloons press against one another. let’s say that we are shining a heat lamp randomly on these balloons (e.g. to simulate cloud cover in the atmosphere). as they warm, they inflate and as they cool they deflate. [this is like the effect of a thermal field on a fluid-dynamic]
there is no way to extract from this, the behaviour of an individual balloon. it is mathematically impossible and this impossibility is known as ‘the three body problem’; i.e. when three or more things move under one another’s simultaneous mutual influence, it is impossible to isolate the behaviour of a particular/individual thing. as one balloon expands, if all the others were ‘doing nothing’ (ceteris paribus) then they would all deflate in reciprocal complementarity to the expansion of the one balloon. but of course there are many balloons in this experiment and some are expanding, tending to compress the others where some others are already deflating so as to amplify the expanding of others and so on and so forth. Mach’s principle applies here; “ the dynamic of the habitat is conditioning the dynamics of the inhabitants at the same time as the dynamics of the inhabitants are conditioning the dynamics of the habitat”. that is, the overall balloon-filled space on the surface of the sphere is like a mediating medium which launder out the identity of the participating ‘inhabitants’ yet reflects back their influence; i.e. the outside-inward accommodating influence and the inside-outward asserting influence are in ‘conjugate relation’.
meanwhile, in the experiment the balloons are of different colours so that we can observe the movement of an individual balloon, a green balloon amongst red, black and purple balloons, and watch it go through some complex pattern of oscillating expansions and contractions. so, we could say that the individual does indeed have a behaviour of its own. but that is a ‘Fiktion’; i.e. it is only ‘appearances’.
now, if we take all those same balloons (we could make them all different shapes and sizes and put names on each of them if we wished) and this time put them pressing together on a flat surface, there is no ‘periphery’. the periphery in the flat plane is where ‘is’ gives way to ‘is not’. the ‘periphery’ in the space on the surface of the sphere was where ‘inside-outward asserting’ (pushing out, drawing back) engaged with ‘outside-inward accommodating’ (receptive/resistive). in the flat plane, each balloon has ‘its own behaviour’ since the slack is taken up by fact that rectangular space is infinite so that the ‘reciprocal compression’ as in the conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation is not present. the green balloon will have ‘its own behaviour’ when it is in the rectangular space on the flat plane; … it will not participate in the conditioning of the habitat behaviour which is at the same time conditioning its behaviour.
now, the curious thing is that relativity and quantum theory say that space is like the spherical space i have described where the green balloon seems to have its own behaviour; i.e. visually, it actually does have its own visual behaviour, but that behaviour is not really ‘its behaviour’. the dynamic of the space it is included in is the deeper ‘root’ source of its behaviour. we can see that this is the case for convection cells within a flow; i.e. they are conditioning the turbulence of the flow at the same time as the turbulence of the flow is conditioning the behaviour of the convection cells or vortices. like the green balloon, they seem to have ‘their own behaviour’, and using language, we impute to them their own behaviour by ‘subjectizing them’.
well, we subjectize ourselves in the same way, so that it is like saying; ‘i am the green balloon and my behaviour is my own’. and of course, mainstream science assumes that an ‘organism’ is an independent system with its own locally originating, internally driven behaviour (and darwin’s theory further says it has its own internally driven development/evolution) as if space were a non-participant.
this ‘visual truth’ which we subjectize with language gives us our ‘i’ where we are the centre of the circle and our actions are inside-outward asserting, one-to-many actions as in ‘a source’. but our ‘feeling experience’ informs us that we are spatially-relationally included in something bigger than ourselves, an outside-inward many-to-one accommodating influence as in a ‘sink’, something that the ‘convection cell’ would be well aware of; i.e. our roots are the flow that we gather in and our ‘flower’ is our visible aspect, our green balloon aspect which our visual sense ‘sees itself as coming from’. our visual sense not only sees our own green balloon but it sees the other balloons that seem to have their own behaviours too.
the feeling of being included in something bigger than ourselves goes beyond our visual perception of other things and ‘their behaviours’. this ‘bigger thing’ that we are included in is ‘evolving’ in an unpredictable way. what we experience is inclusion in a transforming relational space. what we are looking out at is something within which our lives unfold. as ronald laing says (Politics of Experience) “the life that ‘i’ am trying to grasp is the ‘me’[‘ii’] that is reaching out to grasp it”.
I have created perception in you only so that I may be the object of my perception
this is not how our mainstream culture ‘sees it’. our mainstream culture would have it that the view in which the behaviours of the individual balloons are ‘their own behaviours’ and that we can regard the subject animated dynamics as ‘reality’, other cultures would have it that instead of being ‘reality’, it is ‘maya’, illusion, as schroedinger explicitly states this in his writings. e.g. in an essay ‘The I That is God’ where schroedinger discusses the philosophical implications of quantum physics, he cites the Upanishads in support of this insight that ‘the I is god’;
In itself, the insight is not new. The earliest records, to my knowledge, date back some 2500 years or more. From the early great Upanishads the recognition ATMAN=BRAHMAN (the personal self equals the omnipresent, all-comprehending eternal (self) was in Indian thought considered far from being blasphemous [as he suggested that it might be taken to be in the Christian viewpoint], to represent the quintessence of deepest insight into the happenings of the world. … How does the idea of plurality (so emphatically opposed by the Upanishad writers) arise at all? … The only possible alternative [to a plurality of ‘souls’] is simply to keep to the immediate experience that consciousness is a singular of which the plural is unknown; that there ‘is’ only one thing and that, what seems to be a plurality, is merely a series of different aspects of this one thing, produced by a deception (the Indian MAYA); the same illusion is produced in a gallery of mirrors, and in the same way Gaurisankar and Mt. Everest turned out to be the same peak, seen from different valleys.”
like you say;
‘i’, I see as the root ‘problem’, take it away and a whole ‘new’ world opens up, but one must go for the root without killing the flower.
p.s [be prepared for a p.s. > s.] … having reflected on the ‘basics’ in our discussion, i would like to try to ‘summarize’ what is going on here, in my view, as some things are becoming clearer than they were at the beginning of our dialogue. first, just to restate your initial statement and my ‘bone of contention’ [highlighted in bold] with it, which i interpret as a ‘dodge’ to avoid aristotelian logical judgment which you intuit as inappropriate (and so do i). but the difference between your view, and your foggifying of what is wrong with aristotelian logic by your substituting of [subjective] ‘emphasis’ in its place, is that you implicitly hold as invariable, the standard assumption of ‘space’ as ‘absolute space’; i.e. the ‘impossibility’ that you refer to derives from our hidden assumptions as to the nature of ‘space’.
[alain] –“No doubt language profiles a view of the ‘world’; what we look from is what we look at, and vice versa, what we look at is what we look from. What we look from is what we call our subjectivity, and what we look at being our objectivity. The whole thing is simply a question of emphasis, on whether we emphasize on what we look from or at. But there are no subjectivity or objectivity for what you look from is what you look at and what you look at is what you look from as process. What we look at always gathers with what we look from and vice versa, what we look from always gathers with what we look at. Aristotle logic pushes us to make a choice, a choice between what we look from or what we look at, but that choice is language base; language makes us think that there are ‘things in themselves’, structures, substances. And so whatever we think implicitly contains the seed of an impossibility; the impossibility of an irreconcilable duality as substances in the midst of unity as process or dynamism. The basic or fundamental knot, is one of a pure impossibility; Unity as process/dynamism, and a duality as structures/substances.”
the ‘fly in the ointment’ in your view is that where you remove the binary (Aristotelian logic) either/or choice between subjectivity and objectivity seen as absolute opposites and replace it with ‘emphasis’ (subjective), i speak of the ‘mediocre truth’ of the ‘subjective viewpoint’ (or of subject animated dynamics). meanwhile, my subject animated dynamics is not relative to ‘objective dynamics’ but to ‘situation animated dynamics’ or ‘transformation of spatial relations’. i cannot describe ‘situation animated dynamics’ in conventional euclidian space framing because euclidian space constrains the view to the absolutes of (a) the existence of local things, and (b) their absolute movement within the absolute reference frame (x,y,z,t); i.e. i need to invoke the notion of a space such as on the surface of a sphere. a sphere has no corners or centre or any fixed reference point to anchor a euclidian space frame to, so that the only reference is the arrangement of ‘things’ within that space. i am not saying that those ‘things’ have to be material things; i.e. they could be warm and cold patches within a uniform fluid which show up on sonar sensing as ‘lenses’. meanwhile we could use people or animals or trees or whatever as a go-by, remembering that relational space does not allow ‘bottom out’ in the absolute being of local things, nor in their absolute motion. so, instead of saying that ‘the colonizer moves from europe to north america’, we have to say that ‘the inhabitants of the space undergo a rearranging of their spatial relations’. this is kind of like ‘shaking up the global cocktail’ and it avoids the more common notion of ‘subject animated dynamics’.
my claim is that the ‘truth’ in the understanding that comes from a perspective/worldview based in ‘subject animated dynamics’ [absolute space] is a ‘mediocre truth’ as compared to the ‘truth’ in the understanding that comes from a perspective/worldview based in ‘situation animated dynamics’ [relational space]
notice how we use fixed reference points as ‘subjects’ to define locations absolutely and how absolute locations totally ‘subjectize’ the referencing of our view. what i am trying to get to is how our focus on objects in the foreground tends to make us forget about [no longer take into account] the ‘cocktail’ of dynamic spatial relations we are situationally included in. poincaré comments on this in ‘The Relativity of Space’.
“Whoever speaks of absolute space uses a word devoid of meaning. This is a truth that has been long proclaimed by all who have reflected on the question, but one which we are too often inclined to forget.
If I am at a definite point in Paris, at the Place du Panthéon, for instance, and I say, “I will come back ‘here’ tomorrow;” if I am asked, “Do you mean that you will come back to the same point in space?” I should be tempted to answer yes. Yet I should be wrong, since between now and tomorrow the earth will have moved, carrying with it the Place du Panthéon, which will have travelled more than a million miles. And if I wished to speak more accurately, I should gain nothing, since this million of miles has been covered by our globe in its motion in relation to the sun, and the sun in its turn moves in relation to the Milky Way, and the Milky Way itself is no doubt in motion without our being able to recognise its velocity. So that we are, and shall always be, completely ignorant how far the Place du Panthéon moves in a day. In fact, what I meant to say was,
“Tomorrow I shall see once more the dome and pediment of the Panthéon,”
and if there was no Panthéon my sentence would have no meaning and space would disappear.”
This is one of the most commonplace forms of the principle of the relativity of space, but there is another on which Delbeuf has laid particular stress. Suppose that in one night all the dimensions of the universe became a thousand times larger. The world will remain similar to itself, if we give the word similitude the meaning it has in the third book of Euclid. Only, what was formerly a metre long will now measure a kilometre, and what was a millimetre long will become a metre. The bed in which I went to sleep and my body itself will have grown in the same proportion. When I awake in the morning what will be my feeling in face of such an astonishing transformation? Well, I shall not notice anything at all. The most exact measures will be incapable of revealing anything of this tremendous change, since the yard-measures I shall use will have varied in exactly the same proportions as the objects I shall attempt to measure. In reality the change only exists for those who argue as if space were absolute. If I have argued for a moment as they do, it was only in order to make it clearer that their view implies a contradiction. In reality it would be better to say that as space is relative, nothing at all has happened, and that it is for that reason that we have noticed nothing.
Have we any right, therefore, to say that we know the distance between two points? No, since that distance could undergo enormous variations without our being able to perceive it, provided other distances varied in the same proportions. We saw just now that when I say I shall be here tomorrow, that does not mean that tomorrow I shall be at the point in space where I am today, but that tomorrow I shall be at the same distance from the Panthéon as I am today. And already this statement is not sufficient, and I ought to say that tomorrow and today my distance from the Panthéon will be equal to the same number of times the length of my body.
ok, let’s take a break from ‘the above line of thinking’, apart from noting that if we ‘fix’ the locations of material objects first, ‘space’ is left flapping in the breeze; i.e. space is nothing and ‘being’ (the local material things that ‘be’) is everything, which runs entirely counter to the notion that space is an energy-charged medium [spatial-plenum] that precipitates matter; i.e. where material bodies are like vortices in the energy-based field.
instead, we’ll resume our thinking, starting from the WYLA-I-WYLF relation (what you look at is what you look from). this is where the difference between ‘seeing’ and ‘feeling’ keeps being evoked in me.
i have written about this difference a lot, but the example i used in my last post, of the ‘green balloon’ in the coloured spatial-relational ‘cocktail’ of balloons brings out the apparent dilemma; i.e. the green balloon VISIBLY has its own behaviour but if we ‘are the green balloon’ then we also have feelings of situational inclusion coming from the conjugate relation of outside-inward accommodating influx and inside-outward asserting outflux.
if we are caught in the overwhelming forces in the flow of a crowd, we still seem to have our ‘green balloon behaviour’ but the ‘inside-outward asserting influence’ partner in the conjugate relation is being topsided by the ‘outside inward accommodating influence’. yet that is not entirely true since the forces in the crowd would seem to have to originate from ‘inside-outward asserting influence’ though not necessarily ‘MY inside-outward asserting influence’. caught within the crowd dynamic, one feels periodic ‘pulses’ of outside-inward pressing or opening [accommodating or disaccommodating] influence where the forces are coming in waves that ‘add constructively’, as when a group of people concentrates their force by counting out; one, two, three, PUSH! these ‘wave dynamics’ seem to transcend the particles or people or ‘coloured balloons’ that are moved about by them, in spite of the former ‘local participants’ being ‘seen’ as the source of the movement.
now, this notion that the predominating influence in the crowd waves transcends the movements sourced by the motion of the things situated within the waves would be understandable if everyone was on surf boards and deriving their power-drive and direction from the fluid-dynamics they were situationally included in, but on dry land with only air separating the people, it seems very convincing that the overall movement; i.e. the ‘crowd dynamic’ derives from the people in the crowd, from the coloured balloons themselves; i.e. our view of the crowd dynamic is that it is a ‘subject animated dynamic’.
in the last post, i made the case that the movement of the green balloon did not originate from out of the green balloon even though the green balloon had its own VISUAL movement. that is, the movement was coming from the heat lamp (the sun) differentially warming and expanding the balloons.
is this not also true of ‘people’ in general? e.g. sunbeams are converted to organic material by plants and/or phyto-plankton and these captured sunbeams are ingested by people and they inflate like balloons, so maybe it is not precise to say that the behaviour of the guy in the green jacket derives from his interior because if the sun ‘went out’ he would ‘deflate’.
are we not, when we are looking at the ‘green balloon guy’, ‘looking at the finger pointing to the moon’ (or, rather, ‘sun’)?
ok, here’s an insight that is coming to me from our dialogue, … actually, from the augmenting of many dialogues that contribute to the evolution of a web of relations that bring into connective confluence a diverse multiplicity of observations/experiences, … and that is that our visual sensing ‘takes a derivative’ in the mathematical sense of the change of ‘form’ over ‘time’; df/dt = dxf/dt + dyf/dt + dzf/dt; i.e. the changes of the three dimensional shape of the form over time. by this sort of sensing, we reduce ‘the evolution of form’ to ‘mechanical change’ wherein ‘the present depends only on the immediate past’. for example as we check out the naked form of the 80 year old woman each day for a year, we see her wrinkled breasts go from flat/sagging to flatter but we don’t see her when she had smooth skin and full, pointed breasts. but if we were blind and ‘constrained’ to acoustic space sensing, we might listen to her voice and hear the twinkle of a teenager in it; i.e. we might ‘sense’ a developmental story that lies deeper than what our visual sensing is able to inform us of. here, i am reminded of the point raised by henri poincaré in his discussion of ‘the origin of mathematical physics’ and i am wondering whether we might not say that ‘mathematical physics’ [and the bulk of science that has followed its lead] foundationally constrains itself to the visual and superficial by its use of the ‘derivative’? [i explore this in from various angles in Is Calculus Taking Science (And Us) on a Mad Joyride? ]
poincare speaks of our abandonment of the full development of the thing, by our constraint wherein we perceive of the present as depending only on the immediate past, as we do with the green balloon when we focus on ‘ITS’ ‘visible behaviour’. who says that the behaviour of the green balloon is ‘its behaviour’. we get that by subjectizing its form and by imposing the constraint that ‘the present depends only on the immediate past’ [we switch our basis of understanding over to the proxy of the ‘time derivative’]. what if the gnarls in the tree on the windswept coast are triggered by storms brewed by periodic volcanic eruptions on the other side of the world? or what if babies born at the same time as a nuclear explosion experienced genetic modification that shaped their continuing development? when we look at the annular [annual] growth rings in a tree, we see the outside-inward nurturing/accommodating influence of the habitat imposing on its inside-outward asserting genetics. is this not what scientists are calling ‘epigenetics’? and doesn’t ‘epigenetics’ ‘trump’ ‘genetics’? no, this only takes us back to aristotelian either/or logic based on the notion of ‘being’; i.e. where ‘habitat’ and ‘inhabitant’ are both seen as ‘beings’ or ‘subjects’ or ‘things-in-themselves’. and ‘emphasis’ is merely an invention to avoid having to use aristotelian logic which intuitively feels wrong. the alternative is to review our concept of ‘space’ because the notion of ‘being’; i.e. of local absolute ‘identity’ of what our experience is screaming out to us is inhabitant-form that cannot be unbundled from the dynamics of habitat. it is, of course, ‘absolute space’ that enables the mental ‘unbundling’ of inhabitant-dynamics from habitat-dynamics.
that is, since it is ‘visual sensing’ that uses the ‘differential’ [df/dt = dfx/dt + dfy/dt + dfz/dt] to compare the ‘form’ in the present with ‘itself’ in the immediate past, a process that occludes the ‘whole succession of the developmental phenomena’, we may conclude that mathematical physics conceals this reduction of developmental process to current change, in its basic operative schemata; i.e. ‘science’ and ‘scientific thinking’, as we popularly know it and practice it, is visual sensing based;
“Origin of Mathematical Physics.—Let us go further and study more closely the conditions which have assisted the development of mathematical physics. We recognise at the outset that the efforts of men of science have always tended to resolve the complex phenomenon given directly by experiment into a very large number of elementary phenomena, and that in three different ways. First, with respect to time. Instead of embracing in its entirety the progressive development of a phenomenon, we simply try to connect each moment with the one immediately preceding. We admit that the present state of the world only depends on the immediate past, without being directly influenced, so to speak, by the recollection of a more distant past. Thanks to this postulate, instead of studying directly the whole succession of phenomena, we may confine ourselves to writing down its differential equation; for the laws of Kepler we substitute the law of Newton.” – Henri Poincaré, ‘Science and Hypothesis’
what i am suggesting is that ‘differential equations’ is what we are using in our visual sensing, which, as in ‘film footage’, examines each frame relative to the immediately preceding one, searching for ‘changes’. in this frame jean valjean is looking into the bakery window, in the next frame jean valjean is running down the street with a baguette under his arm leaving the bakery, whose window is now smashed, in the distance behind him. the judge, using the standard scientific thinking where “We admit that the present state of the world only depends on the immediate past, without being directly influenced, so to speak, by the recollection of a more distant past. [“without studying directly the whole succession of phenomena”] needs only these two frames to apply the law as he is paid to do. [note that both secular and moral law is applied to scientific thinking based on conceiving of dynamics in these doer-deed terms based on the assumption that the present depends only on the immediate past and that we do not have to study the whole succession of phenomena].
if we did bother to let our inquiry extend beyond the visual frame differentials and acknowledge our experience of being included in a dynamic spatial-relational continuum, we would see jean night after night agonizing over starving children crying as they were being put to bed hungry, and we would see the growth of power and wealth in the ‘kingdom of france’ and how, during pulses of deficit, those with nothing to buffer them, were victims of the pulses.
[like the people of the ninth ward in New Orleans, repetitively ‘victims’ of living in low lands (cheapest lands) which are relatively unbuffered from the elements of wind and water, being devastated by flooding in 1915 [‘The New Orleans Hurricane’], 1956 [hurricane ‘Flossy’], 1965 [hurricane ‘Betsy’] and radically so in 2005 (hurricane ‘Katrina’).]
these pulses of deficit condition the dynamics of habitat/community in a manner that is felt strongly by those who are, by their situation, without buffering, setting up conditions of starvation for some even while they are in the midst of ‘plenty’ that continues to be enjoyed by those whose ‘buffering’ kept them above the rising zero/negative threshold that some were caught in. because moral and secular law is based on the doer-deed concept of dynamical behaviour as is visually sensed in frame-to-frame differentials [space/time derivatives], it blinds itself [in its literal application] to the ‘whole succession of phenomena’; i.e. “We admit that the present state of the world only depends on the immediate past, without being directly influenced, so to speak, by the recollection of a more distant past. [“without studying directly the whole succession of phenomena”]
where does all this ‘geometry and mathematics’ come from that we rely on so much? is it possible that we ‘picked the wrong sense; i.e. ‘vision’ as being foundational to our ‘reasoning’? … since it excludes from our reasoning ‘the whole succession of phenomena’? what if we had chosen as foundational to our reasoning, our ability to sense outside-inward accommodating [resisting/recepting] relative to inside-outward asserting [intruding/withdrawing]?
this thread of inquiry takes us deeper into the underbelly of the WYLA-i-WYLF relation, with a particular focus on what we mean by the ‘L’ for ‘Look’. such inquiry was rampant at the ‘fin de siecle’ as is reviewed in Stephen Kern’s ‘The Culture of Time & Space 1880 – 1918’, an excerpt from which follows herewith;
“If the spaces of non-Euclidian geometry were not bewildering enough, there were other new spaces that could not be accounted for by any other geometry. In 1901 Henri Poincaré identified visual, tactile, and motor spaces, each defined by different parts of the sensory apparatus. While geometrical space is three-dimensional, homogeneous, and infinite, visual space is two-dimensional, heterogeneous, and limited to the visual field. Objects in geometrical space can be moved without deformation, but objects in visual space seem to expand and contract in size when moved different distances from the viewer. Motor space varies according to whatever muscle is registering it and hence has “as many dimensions as we have muscles.” [- Poincaré, ‘Science and Hypothesis’, 1901 and ‘On the Foundations of Geometry’ in ‘The Monist’, 1898 ] In a similar manner Mach defined visual, auditory, and tactile spaces that varied according to the sensitivity and reaction times of different parts of the sensory system. These spaces constituted the physiological foundation for the “natural” development of geometrical space. Symmetry has a bodily source, and the positive and negative coordinates of Cartesian geometry derive from the right and left orientation of our body. Our notion of surface comes from the experience of our own skin. “The space of the skin,” Mach wrote, “is the analog of a two-dimensional, finite, unbounded and closed Riemannian space.” Terms for basic units of measurement such as “foot” and “pace” reveal anatomical origins, and thus “notions of space are rooted in our physiological organisms.
Speculation that there are two- and three-dimensional spaces other than the one described by Euclid and that our experience of space is subjective and a function of our unique physiology was disturbing to the popular mind. Perhaps the most famous critic of these notions was V. I. Lenin, who in ‘Materialism and Empirio-Criticism’ of 1908 cried “enough” to the proliferation of spaces, to the “Kantian” notion that space is a form of understanding and not an objective reality, and to “reactionary” philosophies such as those of Mach and Poincaré. Like a man trying to hold down a tent in a wind, Lenin raced about defending the objective material world in absolute space and time that he believed to be the foundation of Marxism and which, he feared, was threatened by recent developments in mathematics and physics. It is an embarrassing performance by a man straining in a field beyond his expertise, but it gives a sense of the concrete implications and political overtones of this seemingly abstract thought.
Lenin began the chapter on “Space and Time” with a statement of the materialist position: there is an objective reality in which matter moves in space and time independently of the human mind. This is in contrast with the Kantian view that time and space are not objective realities but forms of understanding. He conceded that human conceptions of space and time are “relative” but this relativity moves toward the “absolute truth” of objective reality. Mach’s statement that space and time are “systems of series of sensations” was “palpable idealist nonsense.” He labeled “absurd” Mach’s speculation that physicists might seek an explanation for electricity in a space which is not three-dimensional, and he reaffirmed the orthodox position: “Science does not doubt that the substance it is investigating exists in three-dimensional space.” He tossed off Poincaré’s famous anticipation of the relativity of time and space and then criticized that “scrupulous foe of materialism” Karl Pearson, who had written that time and space are “modes under which we perceive things apart.” The kind of thinking that denies the objective reality of time and space is “rotten” and “hypocritical.”
Lenin engaged in this polemic because he believed that the repudiation and political effectiveness of the Bolshevik party were at stake. When an article appeared in ‘Die Neue Zeit’ (1907) about certain Bolsheviks who had embraced a Machist philosophy and compromised orthodox Marxism, Lenin decided to attack publicly to define the Bolshevik position and show that Machism was simply an aberration of certain individuals in his party, one manifestation of a general disease of doubting material reality that was infecting modern society as a whole and the could break out in any political party. In the concluding paragraphs Lenin singled out the prominent Bolshevik philosopher A. Bogdanov, who had argued for the social relativity of all categories of experience in ‘Empirio-monism’ (1904-1906). Bogdanov had written that time, like space, is “a form of social coordination of the experiences of different people.” Such relativistic idealism undermined materialism and the belief that there is one and one real framework of time and space in which the events of all cultures takes place. According to Bogdanov, Lenin charged, “various forms of space and time adapt themselves to man’s experience and his perceptive faculty..” This formulation contradicted Lenin’s materialism in two respects. The reference to a plurality of spaces challenged the universality of a single space, and the suggestion that these various forms of space and time “adapt” to man’s experience identified Bogdanov with the genetic epistemology of both Mach and Poincaré.” [-The Culture of Time and Space 1880 -1918, Stephen Kern, 1983]
here we are in 2012 but ‘what happened to our inquiry into ‘time and space’ and its influence on social and political approaches to understanding?
we continue to be hung up on ‘visual sense based’ reasoning or ‘subject animated dynamics’ where we mistake the behaviour of the green balloon to be ‘its own behaviour’. in other words, we mistake the behaviour of the individual to be its own behaviour because we are putting visual sensing that is based on ‘taking the time-based spatial derivative’ that, in the process, destroys spatial-relational continuity.
what if we had based our ‘L’ in WYLA-i-WYLF on our outside-inward – inside-outward muscular sensing and made this foundational to our scientific reasoning? we could have radically amplified the complex capability of our ‘Looking’; i.e. as poincaré notes; “Motor space varies according to whatever muscle is registering it and hence has “as many dimensions as we have muscles.”
of course our ‘i’ is tied up in our ‘L’ since we can conceive of ourselves as any combination of cold/unfeeling, judgmental/intolerant vision based observer, or as a blind, warm, non-judgmental/tolerant spatial-relational sensing experient.
but it’s not like our experience is not delivering all these different signallings to us in any case, since our experience is not broken down into five sensing systems; i.e. experiencing is one thing and it is only our tool of analysis that imposes a breakdown on our experience into the various senses. these senses are not ‘really’ ‘things-in-themselves’ [‘systems in themselves’]. as schroedinger says;
“The reason why our sentient, percipient, and thinking ego is met nowhere within our scientific world picture can easily be indicated in seven words: because it is itself that world picture. It is identical with the whole and therefore cannot be contained in it as part of it. … Their multiplicity [many minds] is only apparent, in truth, there is only one mind. … consciousness is never experienced in the plural, only in the singular.”
in conclusion, i think that our culture has used ‘visual sensing’ to invent its concept of space hence the little ‘i’ of the observer whereas our experience, as through muscular sensing (our sense of being included as in a crowd [or in an atmosphere, ocean or hot tub]) doesn’t stop informing us of our situational inclusion in a relational space. the problem is that we have ‘bolted’ our ‘reasoning’ to the space of our visual sensing which is ‘time-derivative based’ and thus extremely superficial. this sets up an internal conflict between world views in absolute space terms [subject animated dynamics] and world views in relational space terms [situation animated dynamics], the latter being of a dimensionality equal to the number of muscles in our body and the former being ‘two dimensional’ or ‘flatspace’ based.
ted
p.s. i do not believe in the ‘reality’ of ‘mathematical dimensionality’ but accept it as ‘our framework’ that ‘we impose’ on a reality that defies description, but that we nevertheless can attempt to describe using idealizations based on ‘symmetries’ derived from our own body-space relations (left or right, conjugate outside-inward – inside outward relating etc.), symmetries that are foundational to logic, mathematics, topology. clearly such modeling frameworks can be more or less comprehensive, bringing to our understanding more or less ‘mediocre’ truths.
Hi ted,
No doubt you enjoy writing as much as I do.
Here are my comments;
(……my claim is that the ‘truth’ in the understanding that comes from a perspective/worldview based in ‘subject animated dynamics’ [absolute space] is a ‘mediocre truth’ as compared to the ‘truth’ in the understanding that comes from a perspective/worldview based in ‘situation animated dynamics’ [relational space]…..) If only you could drop this ‘mediocre truth’ expression, maybe it could help. Once more,….move from Europe to north America…. Has equal value and status to ….the inhabitants of the space undergo…..
(“Whoever speaks of absolute space uses a word devoid of meaning. This is a truth that has been long proclaimed by all who have reflected on the question, but one which we are too often inclined to forget”)….. I agree that we should be more vigilant when thinking about space, but what if we do as if space was an absolute? I often tell people that we do as if ‘as if I am a Quebecois, as if living in Montreal, as if now is January, 07, 2012, as if 4:29am. As if time and space are absolutes is very useful in sending man to the moon, building computer and bridges, etc. I do think that we tend to ‘judge’ other viewpoint/view because we see ours as being absolute, in the sense of what really is, this can show the way to statement such as ‘mediocre truth’.
(…..Have we any right, therefore, to say that we know the distance between two points? No?…) Yes we do, I do not see any problem with this statement, I know for example the distance from floor to ceiling to be of 96 inches, in my mind, truth has nothing at all to do with this, it is something functional, useful, a tool like a hand saw, which has validity and value according to a specific context, I do not say ‘ my hand saw is truth, is an absolute’ . In the very same way that when someone in ordinary life ask me ‘where do you come from’ I would answer, I am from Montreal, Canada. If I was ask the very same question by a Zen teacher for example, I would start laughing and say: ‘in coming and going, I never leave home’. Or ‘what is your face before your parents were born?’ and I would answer ‘the maple tree in the garden’.
I do like a lot this ‘space as participant /local participant’
(….are we not, when we are looking at the ‘green balloon guy’, ‘looking at the finger pointing to the moon’ (or, rather, ‘sun’)?…) I agree, but we must go one step further, and cut away the finger also. We are like a fisherman trying to catch the moon refection in a pond, forgetting that it is the finger that is pointing to a moon reflection. There is no right or wrong direction to point the finger toward to, just cut the finger away.
(…..what if we had based our ‘L’ in WYLA-i-WYLF on our outside-inward – inside-outward muscular sensing and made this foundational to our scientific reasoning? we could have radically amplified the complex capability of our ‘Looking’; i.e. as poincaré notes; “Motor space varies according to whatever muscle is registering it and hence has “as many dimensions as we have muscles.” ….) I agree again, but ‘we’ ‘historically, dt etc.’went for the most simple, toward non complex simplicity (exclusive one), you seem to tend toward non composed simplicity (inclusive one). Being pragmatic, I tend to go to One/(exclusive one/inclusive one).
…..and thus extremely superficial…yes, but extremely useful!
alain
hi alain,
i am open to another word/phrase besides ‘mediocre truth’ (nietzsche’s) but ‘it worked for me’ because it was used to point out that discussions concerning dynamic behaviour are typically based on ‘subjects’ that fail to hide the transformation of spatial relations associated with the dynamic. nietzsche originally used it in the context of ‘mediocre thinkers’, naming darwin, spencer and mill, englishmen, and he was not attacking just englishmen, but an entire ‘cultural trend’ coming from england and already doing damage in europe, in his view. its clear to me what this ‘mediocre thinking’ is, that applies to the english culture and has become globally dominant; i.e. it is the accepting of subject animated dynamics as ‘reality’. my former expression for this was ‘confusing idealization for reality’, but the reason i ‘switched’ to ‘mediocre truth’ because the confusing thing is that on the basis of standard science experiments, we can prove our hypotheses based on ‘idealized subjects’ and ‘subject animated dynamics’ to be ‘true’. that is, i can show you a succession of satellite photographs of hurricane katrina that confirm ‘her growth’ and her ‘strengthening’ (using instruments to measure the pressure in her ‘eye’).
ok, practically speaking, that might not backfire on me in that case, but it teaches me that i can ‘get away’ with taking ‘subject animated dynamics’ as reality when they are only ‘idealization’. that is, solar irradiation infused thermal energy differentially into the atmosphere and ocean and land, and the imbalance in thermal energy concentration ‘brings part of the ocean/atmosphere ‘toward the boil’ (induces convection currents) and because these ‘ripples in the flow’ get our attention, we impose that step on them that nietzsche notes that turns things into Fiktion; i.e. we reduce a ‘Ding an sich selbst betrachtet’ (thing considered in itself) to a ‘Ding an sich’ (thing in itself). and it is on this foundation of Fiktion that we proceed to render ‘what is going on’ in terms of ‘subject animated behaviour’; e.g. Katrina is growing etc. etc.
this is the sort of mediocre thinking (confusing of idealization for reality) that leads to the fictional notions of the ‘greenhouse effect’ and ‘anthropogenic global warming’. this has attained a kind of ‘religious following’ that the global collective will pay a big price for due to the diversion of resources associated with it.
on the surface of it, it looks like any other case in science where our earlier theories were supplanted by better ones later on, but the difference here is that the scientific method and scientific experimentation as it is typically done, cannot disprove ‘mediocre truth’ because it is built into the foundations of science, and also into the foundations of ‘scientific thinking’. i have touched on this in my latest essay i put up. therefore, all of our improvements in scientific theories and understandings are heading for a ‘ceiling’ that they cannot get beyond without changing the foundations of science, or the explanations are reaching a depth that they cannot get beyond. there are arguments about this at the leading edge of science (e.g. see Footnote 1. at the end of my essay https://goodshare.org/wp/civilization-the-hijacking-of-sentience-by-reason/ ).
the issue is one that you and i and anyone can get into, and it is about whether the objects we see ‘exist in themselves’ or whether they are artefacts of our psychological activity. as i have said before, i didn’t approach this by going directly to the philosophical argument but rather by way of the things i have studied such as seismic waves and exceptionally performing teams etc.
i agree that we need to get rid of the finger pointing to the moon, but that finger is ‘familiar words and concepts’ so it is not always easy to ‘get lift off’.
i also agree that we can go for the simple space first as it is useful but it is also the space wherein we see things in terms of ‘cause-and-effect’ and when things happen that are not explainable in terms of cause and effect, yet we insist in ‘smoking out’ the causal agent when there is none. that is where i see global society being today. we have anti-civilization groups, anti-technology groups, anti-capitalist groups, we are attacking synthetic realities that we have given a name to; i.e. ‘civilization’, ‘technology’, ‘capitalism’, ‘communism’ to which we impute ‘subject animated dynamics’; ‘the commies did this’ or ‘the capitalists did that’ etc. we are bogging down because of our belief in ‘mediocre truths’; i.e. relational patterns that we subjectify and concretize with language.
ted
Agneth, clinical psychologist…
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