Mathematical Learning: A Journey into the Deep Subconscious?

the human body (hourglass form) as toroidal energy flow
I am not a mathematician, which is not to say that mathematics does not intrigue me, because it does. Women may intrigue a man without there having to be any correlation between deepening intrigue and ‘deepening understanding’. The deeper one goes in, the more confounded one can become. What you thought you already knew slips away from you in your attempt to grasp it more firmly (isn’t this what has happened in particle physics?).. The explicit being and interactions of numerical arithmetic dissolves into a phantom-filled fog of tacit relationship in algebra, and sharply-etched delineations of geometric form melt like Salvadore Dali clocks as one lets go of the rigidity ‘of being’ and moves to the relational invariants of ‘becoming’ in topology (how would you create a representation of what was invariant in your own human body going from infancy through to old age? The orifices are distinctive invariants, and the animated graphic above is the way that some ancient thinkers pictured the ‘continuous becoming’ of a human. The flesh is secondary, like a ‘biofilm’ that gather in the energy flow, as with the tubular shells of tubeworms that form in the flow of clouds of bacteria precipitating in the hydro-thermal ambiance of volcanic vents deep in the ocean.
Before getting lost in the maze, the point of this post is to open up a place for discussion on ‘symmetry’ and how it relates to ‘understanding’.
I will kick it off from my own perspective which does seem in common with the perspectives of others (a ‘growing minority’?), as indicated in the following ‘formulation’ by Kirby Urner that seeks to capture what I would call the sourcing influence of the conjugate-habitat-inhabitant relational dynamic. What I mean by this is that we normally think of our form, behaviour and organization as originating from within (intrinsically influenced) but our life experience seems to be informing us that our form, behaviour and organization often originates from outside of us (extrinsic influence), e.g. the spatial dynamics we are situationally included in appear to orchestrate our individual and collective behaviour (e.g. the emergent opening of a hole in a clogged flow of traffic, orchestrates our simultaneous movements into the opening ‘hole’)
Kirby’s formulation is;
“The mantra of the extrinsic[-intrinsic] modeler might be “my community needs me, my community creates me”
For me, the term ‘community’ would imply ‘nature’ or ‘the world’ so that we might equally say; “the world needs me, the world creates me” (when the community is all-inclusive, there is no need to use the possessive ‘my’). Kirby’s formulation captures the understanding quite well, and ties to Emerson’s ‘transcendentalism’ where as Emerson says ‘The genius of nature not only inhabits the organism but creates it.” ‘The genius of nature’ in this case, corresponding to ‘the mantra’ in Kirby’s above formulation.
Before leaving this topic opening for discussion, I can recount one of the symmetry shifts I encountered which made a big impression on me and on most people who were close to it, which gives some everyday practical meaning to this notion of the ‘conjugate-habitat-inhabitant-relation.’
As part of an assignment to assist managers in the process of bringing information technology into their operations (things were in a costly, tower-of-babel disarray), a study was hatched (organized by myself) to first identify ‘exceptionally performing teams’ and see how information and knowledge flow was contributing to their exceptional performance (judged exceptional by host community, management, customers, suppliers, service providers, families), suggesting the way in which technology was being brought in to contribute to these results. All of the three teams studied had undergone a transformation of symmetry of the same basic ‘topology’.
For example, the largest team studied had just over 150 members, administrators, engineers, geoscientists, skilled trades and labourers. The team’s operations were losing money and senior management had tried everything they knew how to get the team’s operation back in the black, and had sent in their best managers to cut the overheads so that they would once again fall below revenues in a severe price-depressed business environment. Management announced to the team that it was going to sell off the assets that they had been working on and liquidate the operation (laying off pretty well everyone), unless the team could find a way to put the operation back in the black in a year.
The team’s organization had been the classic top-down, vision, mission, goals and objectives oriented structure that had been tuned to run as a finely oiled machine with an efficiency that was not exceeded by any of their peer teams (the problem was the difficult asset base and the regionally depressed pricing environment). It was a very curious scenario in that their senior management had simply giving up on them leaving a ‘hole’ at the top. They knew that they had already tried the best techniques of the best top-down management approaches piloted by the best managers available anywhere, and that had greatly reduced their overheads and increased their operating efficiencies but it hadn’t been enough to put them back into the black.
They all got under one roof, professionals and labourers and local managers in an aircraft hanger to see if everyone wanted to have a stab at another attempt. Almost all of them liked living where they did and their families were very happy there and if they were laid off they would definitely have to move to find new jobs, so they decided to try something very different (an idea that cropped up in their brainstorming sessions); i.e. to leave the hole in the top, and to let their operational form, behaviour and organization be orchestrated by their customers, suppliers, service providers and host community. Instead of producing into a faceless commodity market, they went out in buses to meet with the next-in-the-food-chain customers who received their produce and they asked how they could modify their ‘commodity’ product upstream in their operations so that it would move more smoothly into their customers’ operations (e.g. perform quality control that was easily accomplished upstream so that expensive QC would not have to be done at the receiving end etc.). They went to visit with their service providers and developed an arrangement whereby, instead of services (equipment maintenance etc.) being on an on-demand basis, the service providers would work it in when it was convenient for both; e.g. when they already had experts and maintenance equipment in the area etc.
As for their operations, they developed a network-based ‘vital signs’ real-time database that all team-members had access to, and when operations went through pulses where things were working really well, they invited any member who thought they knew why and could sustain that quality of operation to form their own teams and work with the full team to revise procedures to sustain the bursts of ‘exceptionally good health’. Likewise, when things were not going well, those (anyone in the full team) who thought they had input on why things were not going well were self-empowered to form subteams to work with the full team and revise procedures so as to attenuate or inhibit the ‘falling into bad health’.
The team achieved the unbelievable, succeeding in cutting the already stripped down to the barebones overheads in half in the following year and returned the operation to the black. The team was no longer ‘the team’; i.e. it was no longer the ‘local system with its own locally originating, internal-intellect and purpose-directed behaviour’ as it had been, but was allowing its identity to ‘blur’ by way of its conjugate relation with the dynamics of the other industries and communities it was situationally included in. One could not really say that the efficiencies gained were produced by the team since the efficiencies were coming from the conjugate community-team relation, much in the manner that wildgeese let their behaviours be orchestrated by the dynamics of the space they are included; i.e. allow their organization to be shaped by the co-cultivating of resonances in their conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation.
The local ‘nominal’ manager of the team was a man whose seasoned experience and natural wisdom transcended his ego and need to ‘be in control’. When his remote senior management called, he told them exactly what the team was doing, just as if it were him that was acting as the central authority issuing commands that would cascade down the control hierarchy. But there was no longer any control hierarchy. Everyone was responding to the dynamics of the community that their operations were included in, and to the real-time ‘vital signs’ that everyone had access to (over networked PCs that the team had ‘rigged’). The top local manager had transformed from the central direction-giver to the voice of the ‘collective consciousness’ of the team.
The ‘symmetry’ as I saw it, had undergone a shift in supra-system – system relation from that of Russian dolls (self-similar forms nesting inclusionally BUT DISCRETELY within one another) to self-similarity as in flow, that of ‘whorls-within-whorls’ where the suprasystem-system relation involves the continual ‘coniunctio’ of extrinsic with intrinsic flow, as in the relation between storm-cells and the flow of the atmosphere. as with multiple storm-cells in a common flow, the operations of the team-cell, customer-cells, service-provider-cells, supplier-cells were all simultaneously mutually influencing one another in a Mach’s principle manner (letting the common spatial dynamic become the intermediating orchestrator).
The team members had deliberately abandoned their prior ‘job-titles’ that implied hierarchy and had explicitly decided to put all of their ‘business cards’ away. The union laborer had become a full member of the new team which had no ‘class divisions’ within it, other than those implied by pay, which did not appear to be a show-stopper, as they were all ‘realists’ about the world we/they are all currently living in. So, one might say that something had also transformed in this suspending of the ego (the view of ‘self’).
What comes to mind is Nietzsche’s suggestion that science (e.g. the science of management as in the traditional top-down team structure) is ‘anthropomorphism’; i.e. our model of ‘self’, as a ‘local system with it’s own locally originating, intellect-and-intention-directed behaviour’ is something we infuse into our sciences (the biological model of a ‘cell’, an ‘organism’, and the sociological model of an ‘organization/team’). What this team had done can be thought of as transforming the model of ‘self’, superseding the ego-first model with the ‘self’ instead seen as a ‘conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation’ in the manner of the storm-cell in the flow of the atmosphere.
In terms of ‘mathematics’ as was discussed above, this was a move from “the sharply-etched delineations of geometric form [Russian dolls] melting like Salvadore Dali’s clocks as one lets go of the rigidity ‘of being’ and moves to the relational invariants of ‘becoming’ in topology (how would you create a representation what was invariant in your own [team] going from infancy through to old age?
As F. David Peat says, in ‘Mathematics and the Language of Nature’;
“The history of geometry demonstrates the discovery of deeper and more general levels, Euclidian geometry gives way to non-Euclidian, beneath geometry is topology, and topology itself is founded on even more general and beautiful mathematics. The longer a particular topic has been studied, the deeper mathematicians are able to move towards its foundations.
But Piaget, pointed out, this historical evolution is a direct reversal of the actual development of concepts of space in the infant. To the young child, the distinction between intersecting and non-intersecting figures is more immediate than between, say, a triangle, square and circle. To the infant’s developing mind, topology comes before geometry. In general, deeper and more fundamental logical operations are developed earlier than more specific rules and applications. The history of mathematics, which is generally taken as a process of moving towards deeper and more general levels of thought, could also be thought of as a process of excavation which attempts to uncover the earliest operations of thought in infancy. According to this argument, the very first operations exist at a pre-conscious level so that the more fundamental a logical operation happens to be, the earlier it was developed by the infant and the deeper it has become buried in the mind. Again, this suggests a reason why mathematics is so unreasonably effective, for the deeper it goes the more it becomes a formal expression of the ways in which with interact with, and learn about, the world.
But, it could be objected, if the history of mathematics and, to some extent, of theoretical physics, is simply that of uncovering, and formalizing, what we already know then how is it possible to create new ideas, like Einstein’s relativity, that totally lie outside our experience? The point is, however, that this equality or interdependence of space and time was already present in all the world’s language. Rather than coming to the revelation that time and space must be unified then have never really been linguistically separated! According to this general idea, what may appear to be novel in physics and mathematics is essentially the explicit unfolding of something that is already implicit within the structuring of human thought–of course physics itself also makes use of empirical observations and predictions. For this reason, the intelligent use of mathematics as a language for physics will necessarily make sense.”
While this makes a lot of sense to me, my impression is that Peat errs when he says;
“But, it could be objected, if the history of mathematics and, to some extent, of theoretical physics, is simply that of uncovering, and formalizing, what we already know then how is it possible to create new ideas, like Einstein’s relativity, that totally lie outside our experience?“
I don’t think that relativity “lies totally outside our experience”, my sense is that ‘we experience relativity’ (conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation), as in Ernst Mach’s principle of space-matter relativity; “The dynamics of habitat are conditioning the dynamics of the inhabitants at the same time as the dynamics of the inhabitants are conditioning the dynamics of habitat”. (e.g. as with storm-cells in the flow of the atmosphere, so it is with cells in the flow of the organism and so with all).
So what are the questions to ask and discuss here?
These will probably differ depending upon one’s preferred language game; i.e. mathematics, physics, sociology, psychiatry, pedagogy etc.
As a possible discussion topic, I will say this. It is my impression that our experience tells us that the more realistic model of the self puts our conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation in precedence over our Aristotelian standard/default; i.e. the ‘self’ as a; ‘local system with its own locally originating intellect-and-intention-directed behaviour’. Consistent with Piaget’s and Peat’s suggestion, the mental mathematics of the ‘conjugate habitat-inhabitant-relation’ type embraced by the exceptionally performing team described above represents a mathematical progression that takes us deeper into our own subconscious, our natural habitat-inhabitant beyond-good-and-evil relationship experienced in our infancy or embryo phase.
Any thoughts, comments, critiques or etc. on this or alternative hypotheses are welcomed.
* * *
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Hi, Mr Ted,
i’m lovin’ it. I’ll kick start this. My observations are that this same intrinsic/extrinsic dynamic that exists between the individual and society is replicated inside the skull. (if it hasn’t been hijacked)
Consider;
>Kirby’s formulation is;
“The mantra of the extrinsic[-intrinsic] modeler might be “my community needs me, my community creates me”
For me, the term ‘community’ would imply ‘nature’ or ‘the world’ so that we might equally say; “the world needs me, the world creates me”
I will add to that the extrinsic/intrinsic model would imply to me “the sub-conscious needs me, the sub-conscious creates me.”
Triadic a chord of three tones consisting of a root with its third and fifth and constituting the harmonic basis of tonal music
In this particular word game, I view the universe as an interlocking system of “chord’s” constituting intrinsic/extrinsic and interface?. So my particular “chord” is tuned to achieve harmony with Mr Kirby’s “chord” which in turn is tuned to achieve harmony with Mr Ted’s chord.
An interlocking system of systems. My “three ended length of string” each “pair” being a intrinsic sub-set of the next pair.
Western civilization has turned off the “extrinsic” aspect of all elements of all systems within society. (obviously we can’t turn off the moon) so that harmony is unachievable.
And so, preferring to leave physics and math to those who are interested in such things.
I’ll watch
walt
PS you might want to consider security, some people may not like being “outed” as a heretic.
Update
http://timephreak.wordpress.com/2010/08/30/the-chord/
walt
hi walt,
your comment resonates, and i would like to try to portray the context that includes us in discussions on such topics. (a bit like the sistine chapel type of thing where one is intended to experience inclusion in the renderings on the surrounding walls.
i would call what you do in your note ‘intrinsic theorizing’ and where my first tendency lies is in ‘extrinsic theorizing’. that is, you, like newton and einstein, orient to some sort of formulation that will generate understanding going from inside (from the theoretical model) outwards towards the phenomena. my natural orientation is more ‘extrinsic’ like poincaré, to go from the outer phenomena inwards towards an implicit common meaning-giving source. i don’t need that source to be an explicit formulation such as newton’s gravitational law or einstein’s theory of relativity etc. for me, the meaning-giving source can remain implicit, and it can be shared by sharing a multiplicity of experiences which, when considered together (brought into coherent connective confluence) imply the common sourcing without actually having to state it. this recalls wheeler’s (and john’s citings of) ‘twenty questions, surprise version’.
i am not imposing ‘either/or’ mode here, quite the contrary, i am saying that these two modes; ‘extrinsic theorizing’ and ‘intrinsic theorizing’ get traction by pushing off one another. meanwhile, it is a different way of looking at how our respective theorizing is mutually complementary. comments from both directions can ratchet us into deeper understanding.
here’s some of my collection of experiences that are implicitly pointing to a common ‘theory formulation’ without the formulation having to be written.
1. the sovereign state of germany invades france; germany is therefore ‘the evil aggressor’. i.e. germany’s behaviour is ‘its own.
howard zinn suggests that france and england and spain and the rest have all been seizing lands around the world by force (might makes right), so it is like a mafia gang that is in a quiet period between wars over control of territory, and it is not logical to distinguish the first one who departs from the rest interval as being evil and devious manipulators while defining the others as good and innocent victims. therefore it is nonsense to say ‘germany invades france’ as if germany’s is locally originating; i.e. as if germany’s behaviour is ‘its own behaviour’. in order to think this way, one would have to mentally lift germany out of its innate inclusion in the ceaselessly innovatively unfolding spatial relations it is situationally included in, and impose an absolute space frame over it that we can use to reference its movement/behaviour directly to, so that its behaviour is no longer understood as coming from the ceaselessly innovatively unfolding spatial-relational dynamic it is included in..
2. the earth rotates, the celestial dynamic is therefore incidental; i.e. its behaviour is its own.
poincaré notes that the earth is included in the celestial dynamic, that the celestial dynamic is a dynamical unity which is the source, not only of the earth’s dynamic, but of the earth itself (stars and planets are emergent features within the innovatively unfolding universe aka celestial dynamic). therefore it is nonsense to say ‘the earth rotates’ as if the earth’s behaviour is locally originating; i.e. as if the earth’s behaviour is ‘its own behaviour’. in order to think this way, one would have to mentally lift the earth out of its innate inclusion in the ceaselessly innovatively unfolding spatial relations that it is situationally included in, and impose an absolute space frame over it that we can use to reference its motion directly to, so that its motion is no longer understood as coming from the universe-flow it is included in..
3. the hurricane grows, strengthens, moves north, dissipates, therefore it exists as independent entity that is born, develops, matures, does it dirty work, and dies; i.e. it’s behaviour is its own.
in this case, as some meteorologists remind us, the flow of the atmosphere is the parenting medium of hurricanes, and it is thermal energy imbalances in the atmosphere (which in turn give rise the pressure imbalances) that hurricanes are ‘born to try to heal’. the greater the imbalances that arise, the stronger and more numerous the emergent hurricanes. therefore it is nonsense to say ‘the hurricane intensifies, moves, wreaks destruction, dissipates, as if the hurricane’s behaviour is locally originating; i.e. as if the hurricane’s behaviour is ‘its own behaviour’. in order to think this way, one would have to mentally lift the earth out of its innate inclusion in the ceaselessly innovatively unfolding spatial relations it is situationally included in, and impose an absolute space frame over it that we can use to reference its motion directly to, so that its motion is no longer understood as coming from the universe-flow it is included in.
4. the fertilized ovum-cell develops by self-replicating (fission) to become a full-grown organism in the manner of an acorn pushing out of itself to blossom forth and become an oak tree, satisfying an internally encoded architecture and producer-product intention (Aristotelian telos) that directs its unfolding behaviour; i.e. its developmental behaviour is its own.
but as a few (a tiny minority) of ecologists and evolutionary biologists remind us, the interdependencies in biological communities (ecosystems) give rise to niche needs that open up spatial possibility inducing the emergence of new forms that reciprocally complement these openings of spatial possibility in the community dynamic. are the newly emerging organisms oblivious to these needs? is the developmental behaviour of the organism ‘its own behaviour’? it is nonsense to say ‘the organism develops’ as if the organism’s behaviour is locally originating; i.e. as if the organism’s behaviour is ‘its own behaviour’. in order to think this way, one would have to mentally lift the organism out of its innate inclusion in the ceaselessly innovatively unfolding spatial relations that constitute the ongoing community that it is situationally included in, and impose an absolute space frame over it that we can use to reference its developmental behaviour directly to, so that its development is no longer understood as coming from the flow of nature that it is included in..
5. the business enterprise or entrepreneurial team is animated from its own local interior by its mission, vision, strategy, goals and objectives; i.e. it is animated by its own locally originating, intellect and purpose-directed behaviour, a model that is self-similar to how we tend to see our individual selves; i.e. its (our) behaviour is its (our) own.
the enterprise relates to the environment in that environment may be a resource that can be plundered for the benefit of the enterprise or it can present obstacles to the fulfilment of the enterprise’s internally encoded and purpose-directed mission, vision, strategies, goals and objectives. in other word’s, the enterprise’s behaviour is its own. but wait a minute, it is nonsense to say ‘the enterprise grows’ as if the enterprise’s behaviour is locally originating and pushes forth out of itself; i.e. as if the enterprise’s behaviour is ‘its own behaviour’. in order to think this way, one would have to mentally lift the enterprise out of its innate inclusion in the ceaselessly innovatively unfolding spatial relations it is situationally included in, and impose an absolute space frame over it that we can use to reference its development directly to, so that its behaviour is no longer understood as coming from the community dynamic it is included in.
ok, i could go on an on, and as more examples are added, the resolution of the implicit understanding common to all of these phenomena continues to build, and as Nietzsche said, at the bottom of all of this is ‘our view of our ‘self’; i.e. the common pattern is ‘anthropomorphism’, the process of having infused our absolutist notion of ‘self’ as a ‘local, independently-existing system with its own locally originating internal process-directed behaviour’… into everything we are looking at ‘out there’. that is, we have infused our notion of ‘self’ into (1) the sovereign state, (2) the planet earth, (3) the hurricane, (4) the organism, (5) the organisation (commercial enterprise).
we could say that we have ‘personified’ all of these flow-features, and imputed to them what we have imputed to our ‘self’; i.e. ‘absolute being’ as rendered in the notion of a ‘local, independently-existing system with its own locally originating internal purpose-directed behaviour’.
ok, that is my ‘twenty questions surprise version’ understanding of what is going on with our screwed up collectively acculturated psyche.
having ‘given the boot’ to the notion of ‘self’ as a local system with its own locally originating behaviour’, my tendency in following up and putting some revised description of ‘self’ in the vacated place, is to collect the general implications that have refuted the static ‘local’ being aspect and thus i come up with the ‘conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation’, a ‘relative’ understanding of ‘self’ that does away with the absolute self-other split. in other words, i am led naturally to an Amerindian-type view of self, and one that is consistent with Mach’s principle; “the dynamics of the habitat (space) are conditioning the dynamics of the inhabitants (matter) at the same time as the dynamics of the inhabitants are conditioning the dynamics of the habitat.”
now, when i browse kirby’s teachers’ notes on ‘Martian math’ etc. and see the ties to the work of Buckminster Fuller, i get the sense of this same progression that is putting spatial-relations back into simple numeric math, or a symbolic (algebraic) math of ‘independent variables’ that is some kind of reduced (de-spatialized) precipitate. as plato says in Timaeus,
“… for had we never seen the stars, and the sun, and the heaven, none of the words which we have spoken about the universe would ever have been uttered. But now the sight of day and night, and the months and the revolutions of the years, have created number, and have given us a conception of time, and the power of enquiring about the nature of the universe; and from this source we have derived philosophy, than which no greater good ever was or will be given by the gods to mortal man.”
of course, plato was thinking in terms of the universe being one thing, made of cycles and harmony (purely relational) implying a thingless-connectedness (as in quantum physics) being at the bottom of it all;
“And as this circular movement required no feet, the universe was created without legs and without feet.” … “Therefore, we may consequently state that: this world is indeed a living being endowed with a soul and intelligence … a single visible living entity containing all other living entities, which by their nature are all related.”
without having to ‘buy in’ to plato’s model, we can nevertheless go so far as to acknowledge that numbers (the epitome of discrete local beings) were born of spatial relations and thus our logic that treats of things separately, as if they were discrete and locally existing, however useful, is idealization that is inherently incomplete.
thus, the proposition that ‘germany invaded france’ is, as Zinn says, over-simplistic reduction and as Einstein implies, ‘sovereign statism’ is a disease that global society will have to recover from;
“Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.” – Einstein
einstein is coming from an understanding that relativity prevails, thus his statement, with an assist from Nietzsche, could be generalized to;
“The anthropomorphist (egotism-based) belief in locally originating behaviour is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.”
we can’t get to this by ‘doing the arithmetic’, nor by solving algebraic expressions, since these are de-spatialized realms. we have to ‘put the geometry and topology’ back into mathematics that deal only with dessicated piles of raisins by rehydrating the mathematics (so that the connective flow [parenting medium] is restored), so that the raisins are once again in conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation with earth (via the dynamics of vines and nutrient sucking roots) and sky (the dynamics of vines and energy-sucking leaves). the picture is now captured by the animated torus gif, at the head of the initial post.
now, in wrapping this context up and around us to give perspective to this discussion, there is this issue of society at large not wanting to buy in, which all of have expressed in one way or another, but i shall append one nicely worded view on this from a friend who responded to a separate forwarding of ‘topology of order’ (one comment, i think it is our culture that is idealistic while my own orientation is to being realistic);
“Hi Ted:
Thanks for the reading material. I quite enjoyed it. Please keep it coming.
I believe your essay is a statement of fact and truth but I think it is also somewhat idealistic. The world just doesn’t work this way, or more correctly, the world does work this way but the vast majority of the population does not see it this way. For many generations the world’s population has been brainwashed down a singular path through our education system, our tutors and our mentors whether they are trained professionals or family and friends. Our minds have been trained to bleet like sheep. As we have spoken many times in the past, the majority of people will take the path of more easy versus the path of more truth and as a result of the majority of people taking this more easy path, the percetion is that this is the path of truth. Perception eventually equals truth when verified, validated and accepted by the majority.
I believe people on mass do this because they perceive themselves on top of the food chain with no natural enemies. The truth is that we do indeed have a very powerful enemy within ourselves, that enemy being ourselves. At the pace we are going, we will destroy ourselves. We will become extinct in a very short period in historical time lines. In all likelihood we will not become extinct from space aliens beaming us to obliteration or being eaten by other animals or wildlife. We will destroy ourselves. Many people actually realise this but still do not have the ability to think beyond their generations of singular brainwashing in order to deal with those exact issues. Society is not set up to deal with it. Society is on a one track railroad that is virtually impossible to derail, deviate or even slow down.
If we in the western world had an external natural enemy like a large beast waiting at nearly every supermarket to devour us as we entered and exited, our motivations would be entirely different. People would come together to try to gather the food, to try to outsmart the beast, to try and survive. Very quickly a sense of community would develop out of necessity for daily survival. Our thought process would change to a more truthful state, albeit a simple state of survival and happiness. A state of being thankful for life however short or long it may be. A state of being. Similar to many indigenous groups around the world.
In summary I completely agree with your philosophy but I can not see the western world putting it into practise until we are extremely motivated to do so and by then it may be to late. Forward thinking for the longevity of the human race is not one of mankinds stronger fortes.
Gregory”
* * * end of attempt at portraying the contextual reference frame * * *
Hi Mr T
>(one comment, i think it is our culture that is idealistic while my own orientation is to being realistic);
I would amend realistic to naive, in early use, it meant natural or innocent, and did not connote ineptitude. Like irrational, the meaning has been hijacked to mean incompetent. I do not view your orientation as realistic. reality is real. as I see it, your dominant thought mode is bottom up and you flip to a top down mode when an issue IS resolved. A european’s thought mode is top down and flips to a bottom up mode when issue is NOT resolved. Neither mode is realistic. Reality, on the other hand, is realistic. As I only have a data base of one, I cannot extend that to amerind, but it’s probably valid. Orientals, on the other hand I’m pretty confident in. (as primarily bottom up thinkers)
I “know” that I have two cognitive minds. the top down and bottom up processes are quite clear to me. It appears to me that everyone’s mind works as mine does, but they are not aware of it. (unless it’s been hijacked, idiots) I view this as meaning that what is happening in my minds is a reflection of what is happening outside, and indeed that seems to be the case, as one would expect if the universe were negentropic (I agree that’s circular reasoning (irrational, naive, bottom up) but it works.}
http://keytoann.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/brane/
If so, when you resolve your final issue you will also resolve mine, i.e. what’s happening at the interface.
Yes, greg’s right.
walt
Continuing along the lines of extrinsic causes, I’m looking at how institutions as a whole define their internal roles. But then what’s an institution minus its ecosystem context? Before ya know it, nature rules (naturally).
http://www.mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=7227370&tstart=0
Excerpts:
The institutions *create* the roles, not just vice versa (or at least
we should be willing to see it that way, if into management theory).
Per some earlier recent posts, I think we should focus more on
institutional deficiencies, room for improvement in workflow design.
Like *what if* you had an academic department really concerned about
food quality in the cafeteria, not because it was obsteperous and
obnoxious, getting out of line, but because we had an institutional
*expectation* that this would be the workflow?
Back to “focus on institutions, not just individual people, not just
individual roles in isolation”:
Like, if you’re in the kind of school that has a strong “dunce”
stereotype, someone in the corner with a pointy hat, then pretty soon,
you’ll find people getting into that role, simply because that’s so
much what’s expected.
The institution “as seen on TV” (imagined, simulated) becomes a kind
of self-fulfilling prophecy on the ground, because people fail to
question (and get out from under) a lot of inherited expectations,
complete with standard responses.
Sometimes the best strategy for addressing an unwanted pattern or
persistent problem is to change the workflow in some way. True,
people don’t like a lot of change and boat rocking. But if they see
other schools instituting reforms and actually seeming to get
benefits, there’s going to be some urge to imitate or at least learn
from these examples.
Hi kirby,
Maybe just change for change’s sake. Like pulling a card in monopoly. “This week, the english professors are going to teach quantum physics” if nothing else, you’d get some cross platform feedback. people seem to learn more about less till they know everything about nothing. difuse the thinking.
watl
hi all
“achtung! achtung! dive! dive! dive! deep into the sub-conscious” captain contagious of the U-666 (Unterseeboot) (codenamed insipid) bellows. Putting the sub in sub-conscious.
http://keytoann.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/iteration/
Or………..I could be full of shit, I am crazy don’t you know?
watl
I find it interesting that we flip back and forth between reaffirming ‘what the model is’ that should be guiding us, and ‘what we should be doing [what changes we should be making] to help it become ‘mainstream”.
it seems to me that the common theme that keeps emerging in both our inquiries into theory and our inquiries into practice is the need for ‘inversion’.
1. from structured learning to situational learning
2. from arithmetic back through algebra and geometry to topology
3. from putting left mind first to giving precedence to right mind
4. from authority-directed statism, to happy valley-induced community
our institutions have been built to ‘achieve some objectives’ they have been set up as Aristotelian ‘purpose-directed system’ and they are justified and assessed on the strengths of ‘their accomplishments’ and their accomplishments must be measured, as in an educational institute and the ‘standardized achievement assessments’ that seek to measure what the students have learned.
in my view, all of these inversions are essentially about ‘restoring spatial-relations as the natural primary currency of our understanding and our behaviour and organization.
that is, the theme is to invert the currency of understanding from ‘the logic of things’ to ‘thingless spatial relations’. the ‘physics’ in me wants to affirm this proposition and say, yes, field comes before visible motion of things, acceleration comes before movement, the relationship between acceleration and movement is a 90 degree phase shift which is the equivalent of multiplication by the imaginary unit, ‘i’ which signals that what appears to be visible and local is like emerson’s cataract, the persisting shape that comes from an underlying continuing flow. the continent is merely the visible portion of the lithospheric convection cell where the rock is fluid and is continually diving down into the sub-conscious (we are not conscious of the part of the cyclic process that we can’t see) over here and re-emerging into consciousness somewhere else in a new form). but how convenient it is to define and label a continent as a locally existing object/system with its own behaviour. we [say we] can actually ‘measure’ the drift of a continent. that’s where we pull out our absolute space frame and speak in the following terms.
The African Plate’s speed is estimated at around 2.15 cm (0.85 in) per year. It has been moving over the past 100 million years or so in a general northeast direction. This is drawing it closer to the Eurasian Plate, causing subduction where oceanic crust is converging with continental crust.
scientists think nothing of statements like this. but the movement is not that of continents, but of spatial-relational transformation. kepler blamed the ‘institutions’ for this sort of thing;
“As regards the academies, they are established in order to regulate the studies of the pupils and are concerned not to have the program of teaching change very often: in such places, because it is a question of the progress of the students, it frequently happens that the things which have to be chosen are not those which are most true but those which are most easy. And by that division in things which makes different people form different judgements, it so happens that certain people are in error contrary to their own opinion.” (Kepler, ‘Epitome of Copernican Astronomy’)
those scientists who speak of continents drifting are in error contrary to their own opinion, since they are of the opinion that ‘the greater reality’ is that the lithospheric dynamic is that of a convecting fluid subject to reciprocal disposition as must occur in a spherical space.
ok, so the institutions are screwing up by dealing with the logic of local objects with their own behaviour that interact in absolute fixed and empty space, as in the case of a continent ‘moving 2.15 centimeters per year’. first of all, a continent is not a local thing-in-itself, and it does not have ‘its own behaviour’; it is a persisting pattern in a self-referencing fluid dynamic (spatial-relational transformation) and we are mesmerized by the persisting pattern, the point that emerson makes in his ‘Method of Nature’, and the point Schroedinger makes about the very essence of matter; i.e. it is ‘schaumkommen’.
so how can the teacher teach the student ‘what to do’ as in ‘structured learning’? the world is continually transforming and we are transforming with it. the meaning humanity is continually changing in the same manner that the meaning of a human is continually changing since in a ceaselessly innovatively unfolding spatial transformation, the flow-feature takes its meaning from the flow before it takes it from ‘the word’ we have given to it when we defined and labelled it.
it therefore makes sense to flip the approach from structured to situational, since the structured approach only makes sense if the condition of ‘ceteris paribus’ all other things being the same as they were when we came up with this fitted curve or rule or law or structured procedure. they are never the same. the situation is continually changing. the situation is spatial-relational. ‘ceteris paribus’ not holding is the reason for what is called ‘the butterfly effect’. differences in the situation that are theoretically beyond our capacity of measurement can make a mockery of our predictions, and if our predictions happen to hold; e.g. ‘i predict that the sun will rise tomorrow at 6:30 a.m.’, this does not validate the theory that we used to make the prediction since the theory left out all kinds of stuff that is relevant to the dynamics that we model.
it is one thing to predict the next cycle of old faithful based on empirical data (without even having to know the sourcing mechanism, but quite another thing to predict aperiodic phenomena; i.e. the scientists who believe they can predict climate change have their heads up their ass, and we are following their leadership.
anyhow, this is turning into a ramble. i wanted to express agreement in the need to change our approach, and wanted to say that, in my view, the essence of the change needed is this flip from structured to situational, which inverts the priority from the logic of things and their interaction to letting our behaviours be orchestrated by the dynamic spatial-relations we are situationally included in. this would say that students should undertake a community project and the teachers should bring their structured knowledge in support. the student-teacher relationship would then be kind of like the ‘peace corps’ movement; i.e. the teachers would ‘camp out’ with the students who were in community-building mode. it is not a new idea, but the it doesn’t fit with our innately ‘structured’ approach where graduates are seen as ‘the experts’ and become part of the hierarchy of an authoritarian society. we put people in positions ordained to ‘tell us what we should do’ even though they have no idea of the situational spatial-relations that we are included in, and that should have first priority in orchestrating our behaviour/organization.
this view of practice is essentially self-similar to my view of ‘the mind’; i.e. as i understand my own thoughts, i am capable of structured thought (left mind, if you will) which is logical and deals in objects and their dynamic relations, out of the context of ‘spatial-relations’, and i am capable of situational thought (right mind, if you will) which is not logical and which is thought that is orchestrated by the spatial relational dynamics (unfolding spatial relationships) that i am included in, in the continually unfolding spatial-relational present.
when i move relation to the unfolding spatial relations i am included in, as in the flow of traffic or body surfing or if i were in an aerobatics team, the movement becomes entirely self-referential (non-absolute; i.e. i do not have ‘my own behaviour’, in spite of the opinion of the outside scientific observer who will impute me as having it, by imposing his absolute space frame over his observations of me). my movement in this case is orchestrate by the cultivating and sustaining of harmonious flow. this, i relate to that ‘pigeon hole bin’ that we label ‘the right mind’ and try to fleshe out what it is, as if it were ‘ours’, but in my view, it does no belong to me. i lose my mind when i give myself up to being orchestrated by the spatial-relational dynamics i am situationally included in. the ‘mind’ that is organizing me and the other is the ‘collective mind’ or ‘world mind’, it is definitely not ‘my mind’, … the pedals of my mind are going backwards when i am in this mode, … i become an out of body observer of my own behaviour; i.e. it is ‘a’ right mind but it is not ‘my’ right mind. my behaviour in this mode is not locally originating, ‘directed-by-my-mind’ behaviour, as is the popular western model of the ‘self’ that we have infused into all manner of scientifically structured formulations including our ‘institutions’.
our changing practices need the flip from structured to situational, we need to lose our minds; i.e. suspend our individual minds and open up to our collective mind that inhabits that space of nature that we share inclusion in.
ted
To what extent is the “space” in “spatial relations” metaphorical, I wonder?
Might we say that “the structural” is more a different situation, the one in “one’s head”, if
a westerner?
You learned stuff in school like about raising your hand, winning praise, the then
maybe you joined some faculty as a prodigy and were judged on your skills in debate.
Perhaps you became a computer programmer and your ego thrived in a meritocracy
of coders, like a martial arts society, with differently colored belts denoting rank.
You’ve been indoctrinated with a central dogma of how an economy (= ecosystem)
should be organized and next we parachute you into a situation. “We” are some “board”
or “politburo” — a decision making center, probably around some big table. We think
we “set policy” in some way (in what way is not clear — this might be a Hollywood movie
so the details are simply left to the imagination (“out of sight out of mind” as they say
— but also “into the unconscious” (not “subconscious” if you’re Freudian (might be
“collective” if you’re Jungian (like a bank))).
We parachute you in, the quiet American (e.g. Ed Lansdale). You don’t necessarily fit in.
Maybe they eat you?
I used to live in Magallanes Village in the Philippines. Tag line: finger lickin’ good.
At least one generation was given the mantra “think globally, act locally”.
What does that mean? Wendell Berry was highly suspicious of the mantra, which lends to a
rift or tear in the membrane of intellectual history, as many a good doobie wants to be
loyal to both WB and Greenpeace (globally aware).
I think it means one is expected to internalize a model of the whole planet (whether it’s
warming, cooling, both or neither — you still have a planet), and then take local action
based on what’s in that model, to whatever extent one might get away with given local
circumstances (laws and restrictions… customs).
But isn’t “thinking globally” just a hair’s breadth away from “thinking imperially”? In what
way is “taking responsibility” really just your way of being dominating, intent upon
imposing some model of “the global situation” on some quiet valley?
I’m no different I suppose, in that I’m putting thought and energy into locales beyond my
horizons. My journals contain references to Pycon / Tehran and Pycon / Havana.
A Pycon is a convergence of people speaking (using) the Python computer language. One
might think a shared computer language would not be sufficient to anchor an ethnicity,
but the balance of anthropological evidence to date would suggest that at least some
computer languages spark all the hallmarks of a tribe, including self government (however
virtual) and recruiting, educating one’s young.
There’s a new book title ‘Mathematics for the Digital Age and Programming in Python’ used
at some of the world’s most elite schools (by definition?).
Would geek / gypsy aunts use that scroll to teach their nieces and nephews?
How do the ancestors figure in?
What are their burial conventions, their beliefs about life after death?
OK, I’m taking it too far, in that a computer language culture need not imply agreement on so
many matters metaphysical. We may have “FLOSS witches” in Portland, but I don’t guarantee
you’ll find many self-identifying as such in Tehran or Havana (or Singapore, one of the more
recent).
Nevertheless, there might be a certain shared coolness and willingness to work together,
that would make these conferences attractive to multiple capitals. Iranians are into trucking,
hauling goods from Istanbul to Afghanistan. They could benefit from GeoDjango I’m guessing
— probably already are, given PostGIS and the source code are free, as is Python itself.
[ Don’t use Latin-1 much? Your top level names might be in whatever Unicode alphabet or
set of ideograms. Just keep the 31 or so keywords unchanged… other caveats. ]
Advertisement: [ Python Logo ] “Just Use It”
Explanation: “Just Do It” is a trademark slogan of the Nike company (as in shoes). In Greek
mythology, Nike and Python work closely with Athena, goddess of wisdom and defense, as
a part of her team.
http://coffeeshopsnet.blogspot.com/2009/06/greek-mythology.html
All of which is to say: here I am, thinking globally, whereas locally I’m just another beer
drinker in Portland who tries to use his bicycle more than his car.
My mother lives with me half the year, age 81, very into cyberspace and a world class peace activist. My daughter is a regional debating champion going to a large public high school.
I also have a global U student in the basement, committed to revolutionary activities after having served her time in the bowls of the defense establishment, learning what that patriarchy
had to offer (lots of stress and a bad conscience mainly). Our pets include a dog, cat, a few
fish and yes, a python.
The “military industrial complex” is indeed a complex, in the psychological sense, and is what
ails poor America.
I’m lived in many places around the world and can’t really help but think globally a lot of the
time. Is that a kind of mental illness?
I’d say all world views are pathological in some way (are aberrational to use the Synergetics
word for it), and we’re each seeking a path towards healing, however misguided.
One could say our environment wants this of us (to heal, to not be socio-pathic).
Even our local ecosystems might benefit from truly global thinkers, is the hype, if only they’d
learn what “acting locally” really means (that thing about geeks having poor social skills — is
it true?).
Does “acting locally” mean being more political? More diplomatic?
Diplomacy is definitely a part of it. I think it means being open to the teachings of the
situation, of the moment. That means thinking in a more right brained and intuitive way, per
Ted Lumley, yes? We agree then.
Bottom line: if you think a brighter future for the world is even possible, i.e. if your global
model is a hopeful one, then your situational ethics will be different than if you’re living
out an apocalyptic scenario?
World view matters, situationally.
Back to my initial question: how metaphorical is space? When helicopters get introduced, the
spatial relationships change. That 30 hour drive along narrow mountain roads prone to mud
slides, is replaced by a ride through the air. But then you’re adding a new sound to the
environment.
And what else? What have those helicopters been used for?
Have you brought nightmarish fear into a once happy valley? These are the nature of spatial
relationships: they’re in the mind (the same one we seek to lose, especially if it no longer
serves nature’s needs).
Kirby
ok, there are ‘spatial relationships’ and ‘spatial relationships’.
what you were discussing were intellectual spatial relationship. those that i refer to are the ones that take over when we ‘lose our [intellectual] mind’.
i could call them ‘pre-lingual’ spatial relationships, the ones that orchestrate our behaviour when we are infants and have not yet learned a language and when we have not yet mastered the ‘self-other’ split.
we all have this ‘thingless connectedness’ (spatial relational) experiencing capability. we use it when we are letting the dynamics of space organize our behaviour. in this mode; e.g. we are weaving through holes that open up in the flow of the freeway, the identities of the objects do not matter and we do not even ‘see’ them as objects, only as the wiggling walls of the corridor that resembles a python seen by a mouse it has swallowed.
when we don’t have words for things to give them identity, there are only ‘spatial-relationships’.
to an old timer who has seen more than one generation of people come and go, she begins to have this conception of this living space dynamic called ‘life’ as that which persists while things come and go within it. she senses that she, too, is a ‘boil’ in life’s fluid dynamic. at this phase of her life, she is becoming line an infant once again, that is not splitting apart ‘self’ and ‘other’, where the word-objects and named identities, including one’s own, the foreground figures, have not yet ‘taken over’ from the ‘dynamic ground’. ‘figure and ground’ are ‘One’, … a ‘spatial-relational dynamic’ called ‘life’.
once we assimilate language, a new ‘reality’ emerges ‘out of the woodwork’. it is the pseudo-reality of ‘foreground figure dynamics’ where the world is now like a stage and the world dynamic is like a play wherein a cast of characters struts and frets their brief life-cycles upon the stage. for the old timer who has roles in many different plays with casts who have come and gone, this show business called life persists while the plays and the casts come and go.
nature provides the sets and the set direction without even having to be asked, and whe is alsto the casting agency (none of her characters are ever ‘unemployed’, they all get roles and they get them back-to-back.
so, this overall ‘show-business’ called ‘life’ is bigger than the foreground figures, the characters and the dramas they participate in, that are always coming and going. it is very ‘fluid’ and the only way to describe a fluid-dynamic is in terms of ‘spatial-relations’.
so, it seems to me that your use of spatial-relations was ‘inside some of the plays’; e.g. a modern western play with all the appropriate contemporary ‘props’ in the set, such as the ‘helicopter’. the helicopter is a ‘stage prop’ that helps with staging of the play, the telling of the story. in ‘Miss Saigon’ we need the helicopter on stage to better tell the story of the fall of Saigon and the confusion and separations associated with that ‘drama’. the stage-prop is a foreground figure just like the characters in the play. these individual things whose dynamics concoct the foreground ‘stage-play’ eventually ‘run out of gas’, but ‘life goes on’ without missing a beat, thanks to the provisioner of the sets who serves also as the casting agency; i.e. nature.
most of the plays are ‘off-broadway’ and go unreported, but the serves to bring those that it choses into the foreground of our awareness. the plays that we are personally in, are of course the ones that attract most of our attention. there are some exciting scenes and great thespionics, most of which goes unreported, there are too many plays going on in parallel. life is like that.
we would like to think that the play we have been watching, ‘our worldview’ is ‘the worldview’, but most of us don’t have the media backing. the media worldview can kill a president (McKinley) and start a war (Spanish American); e.g. “when artist Frederic Remington telegrammed Hearst to tell him all was quiet in Cuba and “There will be no war.” Hearst responded “Please remain. You furnish the pictures and I’ll furnish the war.”
we seem to become the worldview that get’s popularized; i.e. worldviews are self-fulfilling prophecies. just as with our belief in the existence of imaginary-line-bounded sovereign states that depend on nothing other than ‘common belief’, we live in a world where we belief there are 195 sovereign states, each locally existing and with its own locally originating, internal purpose-directed behaviour.
the old timer will have seen sovereign states gather and be regathered into new ones, so it is evident to here that the dramas involving these foreground figures are something less than the dynamics of the common ground, and the dynamics of the common ground (sometimes called ‘the holodynamic’) are fluid and beyond dependency on ‘discrete local objects’;i.e. they are ‘spatial-relaitonal’ dynamics, as are all ‘fluid dynamics’.
now, which is more real to you? ‘the fluid dynamics of life’ which don’t depend on our word-based definitions and name-labels, or the foreground figure dynamics in terms of notional ‘local, duly defined and name-labelled systems notionally equipped with their own locally originating, internal process-directed behaviours’? can kosovo have its own behaviour on the world stage. it is just a johnny-come-lately sovereign state whose reality associates with someone drawing some imaginary lines on a map and arranging that the powerful people in the world agree to BELIEVE in its existence. this is all the credentials needed for kosovo to enter the cast of characters whose activities on the ‘world stage’, with the help of the global media, construct our common popular worldview.
i would say that our pre-lingual spatial-relational view is grounded in our real-life experience while the world view in terms of named objects such as individual humans and nations is ‘idealizations’ or ‘metaphor’;
to the oldtimer, which is metaphor;
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
is life more than the dramas we find ourselves drawn into, the spanish-american war and/or the iraq war that the media were able to conjure up?
the empathic spatial-relational flow experienced by the infant which returns to the awareness of the old-timer would seem to be a more grounded reality than the various cast of character interactions that come and go against an empty background.
life as seen in terms of a cast of duly defined and name-labelled characters and their inter-actions against a blank background would seem to be the metaphor; i.e. life as a play (a case of the tool of idealization running off with the workman, as emerson says) whereas spatial relations is our reality-grounding experience and we are born with it, we use language to drum it out of ourselves by elevating defined and labelled foreground figures and their actions to the status of ‘reality’, which is to confuse idealization for reality and miss out on what life really is while we are doing our role-playing.
ted
It strikes me that Hamlet’s ‘poor player’ quote resonates with a lot of people, which raises questions about what exactly is evoked in our minds as we try to ‘digest’ what he is saying. I think people go ‘two different ways’ on this, and if you want to check out ‘which way you go’, I have tried to devise a little exercise to tease this out at https://goodshare.org/wp/checking-ones-understanding-of-organization
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.” — Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5, lines 17-28)
Ooops! That’s what I get for trusting my poor old memory and associating the quote with Hamlet instead of Macbeth, but what the hell, the western literature is all about kingdoms and the jealousies and social dysfunction (devious role-playing) that is induced by such unnatural authoritarian control systems.
So, my point is doubly affirmed, without my intending it;
T he play [Macbeth] begins with the brief appearance of a trio of witches and then moves to a military camp, where the Scottish King Duncan hears the news that his generals, Macbeth and Banquo, have defeated two separate invading armies—one from Ireland, led by the rebel Macdonald, and one from Norway. Following their pitched battle with these enemy forces, Macbeth and Banquo encounter the witches as they cross a moor. The witches prophesy that Macbeth will be made thane (a rank of Scottish nobility) of Cawdor and eventually King of Scotland. They also prophesy that Macbeth’s companion, Banquo, will beget a line of Scottish kings, although Banquo will never be king himself. The witches vanish, and Macbeth and Banquo treat their prophecies skeptically until some of King Duncan’s men come to thank the two generals for their victories in battle and to tell Macbeth that he has indeed been named thane of Cawdor. The previous thane betrayed Scotland by fighting for the Norwegians and Duncan has condemned him to death. Macbeth is intrigued by the possibility that the remainder of the witches’ prophecy—that he will be crowned king—might be true
If it isn’t the aspiring-to-power uncle that wants to bed the queen, it is the aspiring-to-power wife who wants to convert her bed partner into a king. what is a crown without a jewel, … the jewel can transform a homely headband into a crown, and a golden headband can transform a homely stone into a crown jewel. there is magic enough in both cases to spawn a lot of mephistophelian activity, that stirs the innards of all who are exposed to it by our inclusion in these innately dark and devious authoritarian social dynamics.
Hi mr t
it is the message that is important, not the messenger. Intellectual property rights? Who owns what was already there. Shakesphere didn’t originate the pattern, he discovered it.
here’s what we’re babbling about
http://keytoann.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/screedbot/
as an aside, i notice most of your posts come in the early morning hours. Psychology calls it a disease, DSPS. idiots, excuse me screedbots all! You may be afflicted with normalicy. PopPeeper goes ka-ching about 2am Aha, there’s mr ted.
>”Treatment for DSPS is aimed at re-phasing the patient’s circadian rhythm and sleep pattern. The ultimate goal is to synchronize the sleep pattern to the demands of lifestyle, school, and employment to allow the patient to wake up at a given time feeling refreshed and functional.”
http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.com/dsps/treatment.shtml
>”Research suggests that sleep patterns vary significantly across cultures.[63][64] The most striking differences are between societies that have plentiful sources of artificial light and ones that do not.[63] The primary difference appears to be that prelight cultures have more broken-up sleep patterns.[63] For example, people might go to sleep far sooner after the sun sets, but then wake up several times throughout the night, punctuating their sleep with periods of wakefulness, perhaps lasting several hours.[63] The boundaries between sleeping and waking are blurred in these societies.”
In my terms, it is the time for meditation or bottom up thinking. more sources.
I may do a post on phased sleep
walt
walt
[…] to check out whether one is oneself a screedbot or if one has been bitten by a screedbot, go to am i a screedbot? […]
hi walt,
i’m getting sleepy now. just went out to pick an apple. it’s dark, no moon, overcast i guess.
i don’t sleep that well, but i don’t get up early either, like many do.
one thing about DSPS or whatever, … there is a bleeding/leaking between the dream realm and the conscious realm in delayed sleep phase cycle that seems to put connections into one’s consciousness that might not otherwise come so easily. not sure because i can’t be in two phases at one time, but maybe.
yawwwnnn, … bonne nuit!
Hi Mr T
did this for you, but you already know this.
http://ellocogringo.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/phased-sleep/
walt
Saturday’s posting, re-edited on Sunday, by K. Urner.
“…life as seen in terms of a cast of duly defined and name-labelled characters and their inter-
actions against a blank background would seem to be the metaphor; i.e. life as a play (a case of
the tool of idealization running off with the workman, as emerson says) whereas spatial
relations is our reality-grounding experience and we are born with it, we use language to drum
it out of ourselves by elevating defined and labelled foreground figures and their actions to the
status of ‘reality’, which is to confuse idealization for reality and miss out on what life really is
while we are doing our role-playing.”
Yes Ted, reminds me of Walt Whitman and his poem about sleepers (us, the players).
http://www.daypoems.net/poems/2105.html
Is it an irony in the system (if I dare use that word) that perhaps nature was needing more
“autonomous” humans, that’d introject (own) some structural model of King and Country,
and then go forth into various situations, and change them? That begs the question as
to whether “nature needs”. Also, even if King and Country was the program (theater script)
before, is that we’re introjecting today (or what is introjecting itself — creating this
“we” sense, from which develops an “I” sense)?
Having seen Spaceship Earth from satellites and spacecraft, is it really possible to believe
in those “countries” any more? Everyone seems to make it their business to “think globally”
today (it’s no longer the exception). Whether or not they do so competently is another
question. Can the entire planet be considered “a situation” (a playpen for situational learning)?
Some of these “autonomous” humans, in going more deeply into their programming, rediscover
more of their situational self, their more inner center (as in Loco Gringo’s “centereds”), not as
commanders and controllers, but as receivers of teachings (dharmas), observers, listeners
(Merlin types?).
“Expectant waiting” is the practice of Friends (I just came from a Quaker meetinghouse,
pulling a bike trailer with latptop and computer speakers).
http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2010/10/willamette-quarterly-2010.html
The creation of the ego has taken eons. Being able to subvocalize, to have “one’s own thoughts”
to which others are not privy — how long has that model been in place? They say St. Augustine
was one of the first to “read silently” to himself. I guess before then, people had to hear
themselves read to know what they were reading? Who was allowed to express political
beliefs? Or did the gods do all the talking, through appointed priests and oracles, with the
occasional female cult of witch-seer-shamans? The Cult of Athena for example, later to be
challenged by Apollo, the proto-fascist.
Angels and devils used to snoop on our thoughts, and even today we have lurking pathologies,
people with tin foil hats, worried about “mind control”.
Is this “new” or as old as the hills? Haven’t people always believed the ego was under attack
(the better to defend and define a belief in “one’s self”?). “He’s trying to drive me crazy”. The
sense of “driving” and the sense of “will” — these go together. We say someone is “in the
driver’s seat” when talking about “controlling positions”. “That person has drive” (is willful).
The automobile became an extension of the ego, another shell. A lot of them look like
armored tanks these days, as people act out their need for security. “Security moms” protect
their children in SUV/humvees.
To Afghanis, these occupiers appear as uber-cowards, given how much cladding and protection
they require. Plus they strike by remote control, killing by joystick from some base in Nevada.
It’s obvious that they feel insecure, out of sync. In their papers, it’s all about “not looking
weak”. The paradox of “a superpower” — overcompensation, a complex, the “security
industrial complex” (an illness for sure — one that Eisenhower saw looming, as a threat to
Jeffersonian democracy).
What about telepathy? Visions? What is the ego’s “interface” to a greater intelligence?
These questions are still being computed about, with grammatical adjustments taking place,
memes spreading, countering, or joining together.
The memetic evolution of the noosphere is so much more accelerated than any genetic process.
Humanity is noospheric, with cyber-space serving to amplify and make concrete and accessible.
The computation has speeded up. Does that mean “the answers” come more quickly then?
What resonates with me quite a bit is your listing of tell tale symptoms of non-situational
thinking. If one believes so much in “self direction” and “inner motivation” (versus a more
systems approach), then perhaps one is more prone to paranoid pathologies about competing
controllers, those “others” who must be “in charge” (a deduction based on our own assumptions
about our “inner selves” being proto-controllers, would-be power centers).
Those bankers, those rich people, that cabal, those lizard people, who frustrate one, who
destroy. And yet there’s truth enough if paranoias (some of them). What goes around comes
around.
Macbeth… the haunted.
http://grunch.net/archives/52 (Tower of Babel myth — who’s at the top?)
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2007/09/lampoon-harpoon.html (more Tower of Babel imagery)
Bucky Fuller started his grand narrative saying he had no good or bad people in his book.
“It is the author’s working assumption that the words good and bad are meaningless.”
The ecosystem talks through his “people puppets” in some way. Does he think in terms
of a divine plan? So many have. He’s a transcendentalist who speaks of “teleology” as
“voltage pressure” (from the unconscious then? upwellings of the zeitgeist, holy ghost?).
Yet it was the integrity of the individual which he considered “real”, in contrast to
the shared fictions (waking dreams) of government, religion, corporation. The individual
was to wake up in the dream and become lucid, amidst a ruinous wasteland of obsolete
beliefs (shades of Nietzsche, shades of Beyond Good and Evil, of Twilight of the Idols).
We could no longer afford yesteryear’s programming, which was fading fast in believability.
One could try being a phony, a hollow man, but how long would that work?
People hear it, when the authenticity has gone out of a discourse. There’s an existential
need to “keep it real” (whatever the means in practice), to seek deeper waters, lest shipwreck
in the shallows occur.
My dad was a planner. We’ve talked about roads in Libya. Roads form networks, like
electrical grids, like pipelines, airlines… What is “thinking globally” and are we really
called to think in that way? What difference does it make, how we think?
This morning, my writing was about trucking across Persia, from Afghanistan to Istanbul
and back.
There’s some reality here, in that one of my engineer friends has been asked to adapt
a truck load optimizing program for the Turkish economy, or at least was asked if he
could do it in principle…
GIS / GPS gives another way to think about spatial relationships. The data is presented in
layers. The roads form a layer, political boundaries form a layer. Rivers and streams… what
is “placed based” education? Around here, its about the so-called Columbia River and the
terraforming that’s been going on.
Maybe we could get together in so-called Iran to have a conference on trucking. Yes, fossil
fuels are precious and should not be squandered. Civilians sorting their goods in optimized
patters (trade) should not have to take a back seat to the enormous wastefulness of a world
military machine that ships ribs and lobster tails to Afghanistan to the forward bases.
That’s a jobs program, a work / study program, but lets look at the curriculum. The military
is the worlds largest educator, its bases forming a network within the Global U.
“””
People wanting a Pycon in Baghdad or Tel Aviv don’t have to worry too much about
sequence (“simultaneously” is OK). Even when the distances are not so great
(quite drivable by North American standards) it’s enough work to get visas to
have to pick and choose.
“””
http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2010/08/pycon-tehran.html
I was also writing about Vietnam as well:
http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2010/10/wanderers-2010928.html
OK, back to the Quaker meetinghouse. They still need those speakers.
Good thing I didn’t unhook the bike trailer…
Kirby
hi kirby,
i can’t say that i understand everything or even a large part of what you are saying, but it all seems to resonate with me, so that must mean something.
you write on a fairly elevated (intellectual) plane while i am more of a bottom-feeder, lifting the hood and/or the skirt to see what’s down there.
as was the focus of my original post, not that that matters, but just to orient my response to our comment, it strikes me that we are on a journey that will put us back in touch with what we started off with, the child’s capacity for one-ness with the entirety he is situationally included in, … the topologic or spatial-relational which is beyond intellectualized objects and organisms (role-plays that push out form their local interiors).
i find this theme in some of your writing as well, and i resonate with your phraseology. in fact, your following statement brings out more of my intended meaning that i typically can bring out myself, using similar words to yours;
The first step is to see the Sea of Ignorance in which we toss, and then for each one of us to place a hand firmly on the tiller, to “take control” even when we do not see the results of our efforts. Causation is no simple matter in the real world. Of course every sailor knows that “control” is a relative term on the high seas, and humility before Nature is another meaning of sanity. Humans live and die by the same rules as stars and moons. Steering is not an experience of “forcing” but of keeping an open heart and mind in the faith that a way ahead will open.
yes, this is a more poetic that my typical phrasing and it seems to better capture ‘spirit’. you take me to where i have been when you speak of “placing a hand firmly on the tiller, to ‘take control’ even when we do not see the results of our efforts. Causation is no simple matter in the real world.”
i really like what that phrasing does for me. it captures pretty much all of what i speak to in a less poetic way. in the formulations that come to me, i see what poincare intends when he says that it is nonsense to say ‘the earth rotates’, because this imputes the local sourcing of behaviour to the earth. the same message is captured by the man who has his hand firmly on the tiller ‘even though he does not see the result of his efforts’.
right there, you capture very nicely what i intend by his behaviour/experience being ‘spatial-relational’ (a conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation) rather than that of a local system with its own locally originating behaviour. the tiller pulls on the hand that holds it, and where it goes (its behaviour) is what actually happens, the truth or the reality, and we shall never be able to dissect that truth into two opposing local forces, where the hand wanted to take it and where the unheld tiller wanted to go. our navigation is therefore ‘not ours’., but it is important to navigate, all the same; i.e. it is important to have our hand firmly on the tiller, to be fully aware and accepting of how the dynamic space we are in is conditioning our behaviour at the same time as we are condition its behaviour, like the warping tree in the transforming wind-flow.
‘expectant waiting’ (as in the practice of quaker Friends) is a good way to describe the navigation process, and it differs radically from the destination-oriented powerboating that is a mainstream addiction in our culture.
but i can’t help but let go of the navigator’s view, the view of expectant waiting which seems to me to be a bit passive. after all, we are not the only boat in the ocean, and if there were other boats in the cluster, then my navigation would also have to comprehend my sails stealing wind from theirs, and my wake swamping their boats, all of which would make me aware of my role in shaping the spatial-relational dynamics in which we all shared inclusion.
as i navigate in the flow of the freeway, with my hand firmly on the tiller/wheel, i wait expectantly for some opening of spatial possibility that will invite coniunctio with my assertive/creative potentialities, but then i cast a glance sideways and see in the lane beside me another like me who is also in the condition of expectant waiting (and has been for some time), and i revise my speed so as to transform the spatial relations so that the waited for opening of spatial possibility presents to him and his assertive/creative potentialities fire up in conjugate response, orchestrated by these dynamics of space we share inclusion in.
this is quite close to your’; The future is not up to “powers that be” if that means anyone but you and me.
but the difference (what is missing) is important to me; i.e. space or ‘spatial-relations’, the parenting medium, the genius of nature that not only inhabits the organism but creates it, as emerson says. underlying our words are foundational assumptions which lie unquestioned in normal discourse. this makes our words ambiguous in the manner suggested by Watzlawick (The Invented Reality) where two ships can make the same moves as they pass through the channel even though they have a very different idea as to what lies beneath the surface of the water. we use the words of others to reinvent reality but in doing so, we use our own foundational assumptions. in this case, i interpret ‘you’ and ‘me’ by way of (3.) whereas it strikes me that the largest proportion of people assume (1.) and a minority assume (2.) and a smaller minority assume (3.), … so that the word combinations of (2’s) and (3’s) distinguish themselves from (1.) and thus ‘resonate’, but the ambiguity remains as to whether the ‘resonance’ (since we are just talking about ‘words’ here) is of the (2.) variety or the (3.) variety.
1. the world dynamic is determined by the local objects with their own local behaviours that populate the world-space
2. the world dynamic is co-determined by the relational interactions of the local objects that populate the world-space
3. the world dynamic gives rise to local features whose dynamics condition the world dynamic at the same time as the world dynamic is conditioning their behaviours.
are we brothers in assertively co-inventing the future, or are we whorls in the flow who are united by our conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation in the same manner as contemporaneous hurricanes?
this makes a difference to what is intended by ‘expectant waiting’ in that the wake we are leaving behind our sterns is at the same time conditioning the seas that are approaching our bows. the spatial-relational medium is the launderer of our individual and collective actions. as with the wildgeese and the ‘three-body-problem’ there is no behaviour that can be said to be our individual behaviour. all of which goes to suggest that there is no ‘one’ that is less than One (the dynamic continuum).
1 + 1 = 2 is an archetype for splitting an inherent One-ness into discrete parts that we declare actually ‘exist’ and that the sum-of-the-parts actually ‘exists’ as well (as in 1. above).
the difference is perhaps subtle; i.e. in (2.) we ‘co-create our future’ whereas in (3.) there is no ‘future’, there is only the unfolding spatial-relational present and our relation to it is as implied by (3.) and/or by mach’s principle “the dynamics of the habitat are conditioning the dynamics of the inhabitants (you and me) at the same time as the dynamics of the inhabitants are conditioning the dynamics of the habitat’.
this means that we don’t have ‘our own behaviour’, nor do we have a ‘joint behaviour’ as in a collective, instead, we have a conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation that can never be split apart so that causal responsibility for the dynamic can be allocated to individual inhabitants or groups of inhabitants.
if we take a closer look, in light of these thoughts, at The future is not up to “powers that be” if that means anyone but you and me. it starts to feel somewhat ‘anthropocentric’ as if we are talking about some intellect-directed organizing, a call to action where ‘putting our hand firmly on the tiller’ means and practicing ‘expectant waiting’ implies that those seas that are approaching our bow are determined by probabilities or God throwing the dice. do we take the next step and assume that we are the opening in the seas that we are expectantly waiting for, or do we sustain the matter-space split that gives rise to the notion of ‘time’ and ‘past, present, future’?
in my view (and apparently in schroedinger’s, poincare’s et al), is that there is no ‘localness’ in the universe which means there are no ‘local inhabitants’ or ‘local beings’ and if all the things we are calling ‘local beings’ are nonlocal flow-features as with the hurricane in the flow, then there is no way to render the world dynamic in terms of the behaviours of things, either discretely or by groups such as ‘we’, and there is no past and future, other than idealizations thereof, but only ceaselessly innovatively unfolding-in-the-continuing-now spatial-relations.
it seems as if the distinction between (1.) and (2. and 3.) is relatively easy to detect in the manner it shapes peoples world view and behaviour, however, it seems to me that while the difference between (2.) and (3.) is more subtle and harder to detect, it is important in how it shapes our worldview and thus our behaviour.
and yes, what do i mean by ‘our behaviour’ having just, in (3.) refuted giving any sense to it? words and metaphors seem to fall short here and we could use Mach’s principle but it uses the word ‘conditions’ and what does that mean? well, if one looks at Mach’s principle in toto, the term ‘conditions’ as being the action of an inhabitant ‘drops out’ when we give the same but conjugate capability to the habitat; i.e. we ‘back out’ of giving ourselves a ‘behaviour’ (ability to condition the habitat) by backing out of our ‘being’ and assuming instead ‘becoming’, a conjugate dynamic relation that is essentially ‘nonlocal’, as in the case of a hurricane that the flow is parenting at the same time as several others.
in short, (3.) does away with ‘local beings’ as far as word constructs go, we end up with something inherently self-referential like the formulation of r.d. laing; “the life that i am reaching out to grasp is the me that is reaching out to grasp it’. .
if the ‘alter-ego’, the shadow-me is my parenting habitat, then my ego is the visible inhabitant, which suggests that my life is my reaching out to embrace my shadow-self.
this is a spatial-relational ‘topology’ that eludes the closed and unclosed forms of geometry, yet it does crop up within jungian ideas and in theological expressions though not maintained in religions that deal in ‘good’ and ‘evil’ behaviours. e.g. in islam, the longing for allah is its own answer
but, without trying to dot all the i’s and cross all the ‘t’s, it seems evident to me that we do use the written words of others to reinvent a reality by plugging in our own set of foundational assumptions and that there are at least these three sets of assumptions that can opt for in doing so.
the thesis of my original post was like david peat’s, that our mathematics of understanding is progressing backwards from our developing experience, from 1. towards 3. from arithmetic through algebra and geometry towards topology, … and topology is a necessary foundation for understanding in the mode of 3.
ciaoforniao,
ted
Hi Mr k
just a couple of comments
>One could try being a phony, a hollow man, but how long would that work?
Being crazy works for me
the problem i see with the noosphere, if you want to relate it to the internet, is that as intelligence has increased linearily, idiocy has increased logrithimcally.
> killing by joystick from some base in Nevada
I thought it was homestead afb in fla
> perhaps one is more prone to paranoid pathologies about competing
controllers, those “others” who must be “in charge”
we are the problem, not others
>What about telepathy? Visions? What is the ego’s “interface” to a greater intelligence?
right mind, i think, i’m waiting on mr t
back to watching
walt
thanks for your web wrangling ted, and for your detailed replies. its gratifying to me to find
someone willing to read my ancient essay and come back with such a sensitive reply.
i wonder if you managed to watch the Youtube next to the Tower of Babel USA link, not taking
credit for it, just liking the dots it connects (situationally or structurally I’m not sure, as some
spaces do seem metaphoric, like Narnia, like Middle Earth — and “world” we might imagine).
yes, i can see where “only up to you and me” could start to seem like something Lady Macbeth
might whisper. I see this shifting play of pronouns, listen closely to where people deploy
their “we” “I” and “them”. Who are “they that control us?” ETs under the Denver Airport? Lizard
people? Kings? Certainly when thugs come to visit, to bully and intimidate, we don’t feel like
it’s “us” calling the shots, as we wouldn’t do this to ourselves. Back to that Ouija board again.
Sometime it bites. Fascism arises when a lot of tacit green lights go on, way in the back of
people’s thinking.
[ OK, I admit it, I’m under the influence of Naomi Wolf, having lurked on her storytelling on
another Youtube, after watching Laura Cooper endorse her book. That’s all very by the way
and I’m not expecting many eyeballs to chase down these links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adLs_iSws9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc ]
Before I forget, your always-returning to the whorl of hair, or felled trees, pointing back to a
fixed point: that was coming up for me frequently in the last few months as a friend and I have
kept returning to the Fixed Point Theorem in topology, and its depiction in a classic 1960s
math book that I’ve always admired, was influential when is was 14 – 15. I’m gonna grab my
camera and shoot the page, upload it with other recent, and paste ya a link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/17157315@N00/5049360305/
I pleasure reading your thoughts.
Walt: yeah, afbs seem eager to take credit for these atrocities and/or keep shifting the blame.
Some maybe-not-Hollywood movie might show what it’s like in Anytown when they hit the KFC.
Kirby
hi kirby,
thanks for shooting that picture of the hair whorl. i’ve never read through the theorem but it interests me from the point of view that ‘sources’ and ‘sinks’ can be virtual and i’m sure that conspiracy theory comes in here. all of the evidence points to something or someone ‘over there’ as being responsible for ‘all of this’ but that’s just the ‘flatspace view’. its like watching waves head for the shore and thinking that the dynamics are lateral when the real dynamics are inner-outer (hydrosphere-atmosphere).
that’s what i see in naomi wolf’s presentation, ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc ) as well. her awakening, after being warned by the holocaust survivor, that the same thing is going on in the US (under Bush) as went on in Italy and Germany according to the same ‘blueprint’ which she breaks down into 10 steps is, for me, ‘illusion’.
i think the problem lies much deeper than the loss of democracy due to a despot taking over. to me the problem is at the level of the western culture, and ‘the founding fathers’ were within that culture, they were ‘colonizers’ too. ‘colonizing’ and ‘democracy’ don’t go together.
where i am ‘coming from’ is from my natural experience of dynamics (decidedly non-Aristotelian) and it changes how i think about ‘cultures’. i think sovereign statism is screwed up. i think ‘kingdoms’ (authoritarian hierarchies) are a screwed up form of organization, i think that 195 sovereign state ‘loose cannon balls on deck’ is global insanity.
i don’t believe the problem starts with a nation getting taken over by a despot, as naomi wolf is focusing on. i agree with howard zinn that sovereign states are the problem. authoritarian control hierarchies may be the popular choice of Aristotle and western civilization, but in my view, they are an intrinsic source of social dysfunction. Zinn says;
“the very “evils” that the war was meant to defeat was implicit in the actions of the allies. All of the allied powers had records of colonisation and all had previously invaded other countries for their own good, as they then complained of Germany or Japan doing. All defended their empires against independence movements in the years following 1945. All ultimately carried out military action that killed thousands and thousands of civilians. Blanket bombing in Dresden was described by Churchill as a “heavy raid”. At the time, racism in the US underpinned the social system as much as it fuelled the rhetoric to go to war against Japan and Germany. In this sense too, less happily, “they” were actually just like “us”. Yet, the rhetoric of war relies on “them” being seen as lesser.”
naomi wolf, in my view, is energizing people to shuffle deck chairs on the titanic, to waste time and energy.
our western culture puts a God in everything. that is what a local system is, a notional organized mechanism notionally internally powered and steered by a God-like local creative source. that is our western view of ‘self’ and we have infused it into our view of ‘cells’ and ‘organisms’, sovereign states and corporations. it is all Aristotelian bullshit. it does provide us with an internally logically consistent framework so long as we invoke the conventions of absolute euclidian space, absolute time and the substitute invariable solids of geometry for obects, cells and organisms.
there are no evil sovereign states.
Germany under Hitler was not an ‘evil sovereign state’.
neither are there any good sovereign states.
sovereign states do no exist other than in the belief systems of those who incant over the notion of them on a daily basis to sustain such beliefs. they are pure Aristotelian idealization.
trying to keep them ‘free’ as Naomi is advocating, is more of the same delusion.
that’s what Zinn is implying. that’s what john lennon was implying.
to be clear, … what i am saying is that any notional ‘local object’ or ‘local system’ which we impute to have ‘its own behaviour’, … is idealization that we confuse for reality at our own peril. i am saying that it is a ‘language game’. there are no local systems with their own behaviour. that is idealization that does not jibe with reality (walt doesn’t like me to use ‘reality’ here but i am using it in the sense of ‘supported by natural experience’). like your man with his hand on the tiller, he does not have his own behaviour. the same is true for the sovereign state. there is no thing in the world that is isolated from the ‘rest of the world’ so that it can act on its own.
there is one world and what happened during the 1930s and 1940s was part of the one-world dynamic (all wars are civil wars) and it is idealization to plunk down some imaginary-line boundaries to serve as cookie cutters to carve the world up into 195 separate and ‘independent’ sovereign states. the unfolding world dynamic is bounded neither in space or in time. the winds, the waters, the birds the insects understand this, but humans, particularly western-acculturated humans, are caught up in their language games. ‘columbus discovers america’, the founding fathers draw up a charter for a democratic state where everyone can live in freedom and peace, … and there will be peace with the indians as the genocide that has been launched continues on (insidiously rather than overtly), with the help of the ring-fence that comes bundled in with the sovereign state democracy package.
i think howard zinn is on target with his ‘People’s History of the United States’ (and had he had time he could have similarly written up any one of the world’s 195 sovereign states. i don’t think the book is a polemic and i don’t think it is anti the people of america, i see it as a commentary on flaws in our thinking that lie very deep. flaws that we should bring out of the closet and deal with if we are going to give the children of the world a place of harmony to live their lives in.
naomi wolf is not digging deep enough. she accepts the notion of the sovereign state and seeks to bring it back to good repair, as it was in its early conception (in her view). this to me is an act of futility.
the compassionate treatment of people that lies within such initiatives has value in any case; i.e. compassionate acts do not depend upon the architectures that one may have in their heads. the compassion was there in the tribal villages of the stateless society of the amerindians and statelessness is not an architecture.
ted
Hi people,
Homo Lakota? not likely.
http://keytoann.wordpress.com/2010/09/04/naomi-wolf/
walt
walt,
no, walt, the problem is not at the level of mankind, it is at the level of culture, and no, it is not the case that “all of the 10 steps are evident in chimpanzee society”.
organization does not start with the primate’s brain, walt, organization starts in the dynamic space of nature. the primate is organization parented by the dynamic space of nature.
human society uses language as a reality-shaping tool, … not evident in chimpanzee society. the notion of an imaginary line bounded space whose borders must be respected is not evident in chimpanzee society, nor do chimpanzees have gulag archipelagos featuring confining spaces.
this removes numbers 1, 2, 4, 6 and 7 as occur in human society that are not evident in chimpanzee society.
again, language based idealization of reality and the use of imaginary-line-bounded spatial confinement are not evident in chimpanzee society.
furthermore, the organizational architecture of stateless cultures which had no words for ‘land ownership’ such as the aboriginals, tapped into the natural organizing inherent in their inclusion in nature (their conjugate habitat-inhabitant inclusion). this is available to all organisms, not just primates, but western culture has chosen to demote it and to elevate instead, authoritarian control systems, using the idealization of imaginary-line-bounded confining spaces and the belief in the ‘independence’ of societies within those idealized spaces as part of the Aristotelian scheme (the independent society is understood as a local system with its own locally originating, intellect and purpose-directed behaviour).
this inversion and one-sided truncation of organizing influence now dominates in the world, as a result of western culture having become dominant in the world.
it is common for people NOT to question the deep assumptions of the culture they were born into, thus my mother would have interpreted the current situation similarly to Naomi Wolf and i would assume in both cases that their interpretations derive from compassionate intentions. nevertheless, they are thinking within a cultural paradigm (Aristotelian, causal) and the cultural paradigm, in my view, is the problem.
and no, it is not that the Lakota people are special. we are all equipped to tap into the natural organizing influences (spatial-relational resonances) that are immanent in the dynamic space we all share inclusion in. the problem is that western culture has opted to elevate their own home-made organizing architecture to first order precedence (local central authority driven organization). no, authority-driven organization is not in first order precedence in amerindian culture/society, it is in second priority; i.e. it is a tool that has not run away with the workman as it has in western culture.
the organization of amerindian society that was admired by the founding fathers was not ‘directed by the intellect of the amerindians’, it derived from nature; i.e. the amerindian culture let their behaviours be orchestrated/organized by the dynamics of the space they were included in.
ted
Yeah, Naomi coulda dug deeper, agreed.
My hero Bucky was of the same persuasion as Zinn and Einstein, in thinking nationalism was a
form of mental illness, or at best a way station in humanity’s many abortive attempts to self
organize, often freaking out in the process (though the PR of the time tends to glorify the
perps).
Future shock has only gotten more shocking (per Toffler) however it’s not all bad news, in that
we have wonderful equipment (hardware), although I’m wondering if El Loco Gringo thinks it’s
a design flaw, that we’re not having some great awakening, yet need to (as brains start to work
as they’re meant to, situationally, left handed).
Bucky and his Asian heritage friends (Sadao, Kuromiya, Zung etc.) promulgated a nationless
world map, complete with technical selling features such as cartographers care about. His
PR aimed to cover the technical, the sharpness of the arrow tip, the tension on the bow, wind
speed etc. This was named the Dymaxion Projection to start, as he was early into branding, in
the sense Madison Avenue was to pioneer, brainwashing using powerful motivational
psychology using circuits that include the optical nerve directly (talking about TV — for so
many, it’s not really real if its not on television (Bucky was on television some, some copied
forward to Youtube, other footage stored at Stanford, where most of the collection ended up,
whereas Oregan State has Linus and Ava Helen Pauling papers).
Linus and Einstein were a lot on the same page, covering the technical aspects of radiation
poisoning, the fact that the white man was inadvertently poisoning his own children with
strontium 90 in mother’s milk. That was a tipping point, in the 1960s, when people marched
against Civil Defense and bomb shelters as just too crazy a dystopia to be investing in. The
women shook a finger at those “grown men” playing out such a stupid homage to fear and
hysteria. “You can be braver than that and actually make peace with the Russians” was more
the enjoinder. Roll tape fast forward and Ronald Reagan is announcing “we begin bombing in
five minutes”, making a joke, thumbing his nose at the scared shitless. “Thats *not funny*”
say the serious, fingers nervously on some button (wired to what I couldn’t tell ya, varies
from case to case).
Anyway, it bothers me that Bucky, awarded a Medal of Freedom by RR after declaring the USA
we have known ‘bankrupt and extinct’ in Grunch of Giants (1983), after questioning corporate
personhood and the doctrine of discovery (both pet issues of politicos today) is so rarely cited.
Because those who’d rather not dig deep don’t wanna go down the rabbit hole to topology, to
speak with Alice and her cat, the caterpillar. A fictional situational world, a mythical place.
Narnia. A closet. Not saying we’re all in the same closet though. To each her own. Superman’s
phone booth (a famous book title someday?).
Anyway, a small chip on my shoulder cuz my hero is so rarely in the footnotes, but then I have
other heros who very much are, and sometimes “esoteric” is a good thing.
On that topic of mathematics (noting your heading), I bill myself as a Rad Math teacher, have a
backwards R under a radical (surd) for branding, share it with others in my network. We
include some Verboten Math in our lineup, i.e. suppressed geometry they won’t teach you,
even though Bucky claimed it was uber-important. Talking about the unit-volume tetrahedron
idea. I’m also marketing it under GNU Math (open source) and Martian Math, aiming to see
more on television (yes, alluding to remarks above). We always think of “units of volume” as
little cubes. Right angles pervade. Yet up close views of nature, through microscopes, revealed
a highly Platonic biological world, like Plato meets Mother Nature (a Renaissance). So many
60 degree angles, so many icosahedra, so many buckminsterfullerenes. A different culture.
Around here, I support Amerindians succeeding in land buy-back through casino revenues,
with the latter perhaps transforming through new kinds of games. The white man has built
games of chance right into the heart of state funding, via video lottery and such, so is in no
position to be bellowing that moo stuff about “sin” from the pulpit, unless prepared to attack
his own state. That’s a weakened position, for high horse moralists to be in. Plus a lot of the
ecological moves have been disasters. Columbia River is radioactive. America eats its own
children. Might be time to let others share more in the driving? Kind of obvious we’re dealing
with stoopid qyoobists — over-invested in 90-degreeness, so-called Orthodoxies (rhymes
with Orthonormal, or just normal). I’m with El Loco: so-called sanity is the shits (the slums,
the hangout of radio voices, hollow with ignorance and vanity).
Did you know Einstein was offered the presidency of Israel? Much as he loathed these stupid
nations, he could see where a persecuted people would need a fortified castle to call home.
I don’t think he envisioned a literally “walled state” armed to the teeth, but then he didn’t think
“bombs away Truman” would actually use the A-bomb either. The whole point was to keep
the Nazis from doing what Truman went and did. Who was winning that war anyway? Too
early to tell? Fascism wasn’t going down just because some grass roots said so.
Eisenhower saw massive sleep inducing brainwashing of television coming, a tsunami.
Did we ever wake up?
And who is “we” again? “Why do we fight?” asked the Halloween zombie, “damned if I know.”
Einstein wisely refused, knowing nothing about statecraft. The point was, the chosen people
were willing to choose a truly kind, compassionate and decent man for a leader, and that is
to their everlasting credit (nor was this the first time I reckon).
Imagine going into a coffee shop and buying a coffee drink spiked with Jack Daniels. A pie
slice of profit, that would’ve gone to the vendor for charity (still on the books in classical
economics, and important), goes to the buyer, who now gets to play a game of skill to have
it committed to a worthy cause of the player’s choosing.
Be a star for Jack Daniels and try to hit those moving targets. Show us your level of play.
Some games are didactic, teach the “central dogma” of biochemistry for example (about DNA
and RNA). Be a hero for a school down the street perhaps, kick a dollar into the kitty for
St. David of Wales, some NGO with a fund drive (they all have ’em).
Your personal record now shows what you’ve done, like a girl scout merit badge. Give everyday
people the power to simply give out of the goodness of their hearts. You don’t have to be a
millionaire to roll these dice. Welcome to your casino of tomorrow (and yes, you may designate
yourself the worthy designee sometimes, though with others judging your performance, they
may see you as too greedy or too much the basket case (same thing?), so lets not be too
selfish shall we — potlatch economics is where it’s at, with the magic of synergy making
the pot grow bigger).
I call this business model Coffee Shops Network or CSN, remembering that coffee shops and
philosophy intersect in post WW1 France, among the existentialists for example. I also pay
homage to the Queen of Greenwich Village, Romany Marie.
http://coffeeshopsnet.blogspot.com/2009/03/franchise-motifs.html
The Dymaxion Projection was later renamed the Fuller Projection, or at least Applewhite wanted
to see the latter put forward as a synonym. “Dymaxion” was getting to sound too quaintly
retro, too 1950s, when more North Americans did have a utopian gleam in their eye (“utopia”
was less a bad word back then, and Vietnam had yet to happen, yet another freak out). That
gets us to your Ronald Reagan poster and Bob Dobbs, Church of the Subgenius. There’s a
spoofiness here worth preserving, a first line of defense against the “normals” (the serious
workaholics who know not what they do). ‘Hairspray’ by John Waters was a fantastic bridging
of some ethnic divides. Weird Al is another hero, for ‘White and Nerdy’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9qYF9DZPdw
Enjoying the elevator ride, into the topological unconscious. “Going Down?”…
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2005/01/going-down.html
Kirby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7soN6HNU3Y (all war is civil war)
Hi Mr Ted
You’re getting too much in your head, big guy
Technology is the usage and knowledge of tools, techniques, crafts, systems or methods of organization. – Wikipedia
The appearance of the ‘”hair whorl” was in and of itself a technology. an inwelling if you will seeking the outwelling of an asshole to fill it.
This appears to be, although I can’t prove it, built into the system. i.e. organization starts in the dynamic space of nature. (negentropic)
In like manner language and bounded space are technologies, in the same manner as the first chimp that discovered he could use a stick to beat the subservients into submission.
Wars happened long before language and bounded space were introduced as “new” technologies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XuXi3mqYM&NR=1
or
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/08/gallery-ant-warfare/all/1
being more or less the way I view the matter.
All things being equal, anytime one culture comes into contact with another, a war will occur and the side with the superior technology will be killed or sublimated. War does not denote combat.
Unless there is a homo lakota as a separate species, this applies to them as well. I’m winging it here, but the superior technology may have been organizational skills or a superior method of tanning buffalo hides, but the vanquished are no less dead. The Lakota were the victors, the vanquished, dunno.
We are ALL survivors of these wars, subsumed into the victor culture.
And the victors are always going to be self righteous.
And the vanquished are always going to be pissed off.
There’s no nice way to kill somebody. European civilization is, at present, at war with the third world in general and islam in particular. Every time I crank up my car, some third world child on the edge dies as a result. We’re going to loose this war, an enemy has come up with a superior technology, virtual pussy. Hijacking the reproductive drive, even more basic than religion or education.
Or, another way to look at it is you can’t use a $68,000 hellfire missle to do something the enemy can do with a 59 cent box cutter and expect to win.
and so it goes
walt
ps
change superior to inferior above
walt
Mr Kirby
We
include some Verboten Math in our lineup, i.e. suppressed geometry they won’t teach you,
even though Bucky claimed it was uber-important. Talking about the unit-volume tetrahedron
idea
Interesting, vector math?
walt
Hey Walt —
Lots of ways to tell the story of history. Today’s whiteman capitalists talk in terms of state
capitals, as in “London didn’t like what Paris implied” — a kind of shorthand mapping to
nebulous mob psychologies. I do it too, always talking about “Portland, open source
capital” (Christian Science Monitor even says so, and Willamette Week).
However the new “countries” are often ethereal (virtual), such as Oracle or Exxon.
Is it true that Russian petrodollars now control a goodly share of what used to be Standard Oil,
morphing to S-O, thence to Esso? Then Exxon. Is that part of what Alaskan politics is about
these days?
Do you think Exxon wants war in Iran?
Or is it some Xtian mob of apocalyptic doomsayers, intent upon seeing more Holy Land
Extravaganzas, accustomed to getting their way, as with this one:
http://greyfalcon.us/restored/myPictures/gulf_war_poster.jpg
There’s a greed and selfishness in wanting to always use the Middle East as a coliseum for
Biblical Showdowns, a petri dish for grand Morality Plays, a hogging of the limelight. The
“I told you so” soldiers want vindication for their many profound pronouncements around
the BBQ. The apron says “chief” after all, and some of the guests have high rank.
The cock and dog fighters wanna lay bets, as to who got it right about that Book of Revelations.
Such ethnocentrism begets the Ugly American Syndrome **, that guy eating popcorn wanting
to see the Wrath of Khan or God or whatever shock-and-awe Superpower strut His hour upon
the stage (state and deity blur in the wine-or-beer-darkened fascist brain, slowly starved by
bad television).
I’d say it’s “the movies” (TV) people believe in, what the military means by “theater”. Ted is
pointing out that Nature is no passive player, in the sense that we’re not free to just “play fort”
with our blood-soaked pillows for all eternity, however ape-like we may be (and not free in
other senses as well — she has mind powers too). We’ve got puzzles to solve, homework
to do. It’ll take concentration. Orgies of violence can’t always hog center ring, much as
“we Romans” (how many USA & UKers sound) love our bread and circuses.
There’s planning that needs to happen, and happen it does. Talk of nations or even “Europe”
is like gullible baby talk, a dumbing (slowing) for the sake of intelligibility (pandering).
Sure, you can talk it (we all do) but it’s like being in a comic book and seeing the talk
balloons. You know its just horse shit, a buncha butt scratching baboons hanging out
around the water cooler, talking “global politics” (thinking globally, it’s their birthright
— might come in handy in a billion years, when it all gets more evolved?).
If you wanna read more of my politics, here’s some high bandwidth cartoons for ya.
http://www.4dsolutions.net/mycartoons/cartoon1.html
http://www.4dsolutions.net/mycartoons/cartoon2.html
http://www.4dsolutions.net/mycartoons/cartoon3.html
http://www.4dsolutions.net/mycartoons/cartoon4.html
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2006/11/about-secularism.html
I’m a known quantity in the sense that my biases are on my sleeve. I’m surrounded by twelve
beautiful Arab girls, some Xtian-Pagan, in the paintings (smiling like Ronnie, with some cards
in my hand — are those dice for eyes? Casino Math….)….
http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2006/02/american-islam.html
Anyway, I’m not denying homo devo is cruel, in whatever lands, running whatever software
(meme-ware mnemonics, trains of thought).
I think it might by the XY chromosomes to blame though, a dangerous mutation. There were
other ways to have a male sex and this one wasn’t optimum. But then I think “nah….. you’re
just dreaming again.”
Chapter 12: Misanthropy versus Philanthropy.
There’s a tendency to project that tension (hate versus love), often in some religious theater.
Devils were jealous of “men” (God’s new pet project, or puppet as the case may be) and
were glad when we stumbled. The Angels were of this same species, but were rooting for us,
understanding that God (Cosmic Mind / Spaghetti Monster) needed to move on and raise up
another prototype, the demon species (Angles and Devils) having already booted into
immortality to the glory of God, amen.
The secular world pits us against Martians perhaps, but few people really believe in such
dubious science fiction, Orson Welles notwithstanding.
The devils might be ourselves then, as our allegiance to humanity is sometimes less than our desire to say “I told you so” when it all goes to Hell (our destined preserve? our revenge?).
I take refuge in Quaker animism, feeling compassion and love towards animals and sneaking
up on humans (mammals) under that rubric. “I want you to love me for my mind, not my
body”. Why the imbalance, what’s so beautiful about your mind, given all those swarming bugs
in there.
That sounds like the opposite of many religions, which preach love NOT for the creatures of
this Earth, but for their other-worldly souls. Anything “temporal” deserves to be “trashed”
(dissed, tossed, disposed of). That’s the whiteman’s illness right there: hatred for this Earth,
and a betraying dream of a “Next World” (a kind of spoiled rottenness? a terminal lack of
gratitude? What’s the diagnosis here?).
Some of these meme-viruses (sins) are just ugly, so I’m back to compassion for “mere
creatures” (the “least of these” in the Bible were non-humans I’d say — the meek that shall
inherit?), hoping to seem them less malnourished, less abused by their invader overseers
(their parasitic “egos” or “personalities” — impostors in many cases, bad actors, full of
phony baloney (body snatchers…)).
Halloween is coming again, it’s in the wind,
Kirby
** http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2008/05/wmbs-satire.html
Hi, Mr Kirby
>Lots of ways to tell the story of history
I’ve noticed that history seems to be unpredictable.
Now to do some research to see what you’re talking about
walt
Hi Mr Kirby.
>So my translation of “secular” is more like “friendly to individuals” which might mean “characters” i.e. these one-of-a-kind, unique specimens. By definition, we’re not all on the same page.
Yup!
Exxon, Petrodollars? Dunno, when I was in the business we dealt with the Ministry of oil. I’m pretty confident that they are though. You can view the New World Order as the hyper-males removing their own restrictions while keeping the peasants penned in nation states. The NWO is a done deal, making Exxon an agency of the NWO.
Politics? Irrelevant. Politics is what the hyper-males allow the peasants to do to give them the illusion of power.
What we call corruption is merely the government doing what they are commanded and given permission to do by the hyper-males.
It all boils down to the alpha male beating the subservient males about the head and shoulders with a stick, giving the alpha male primacy in the banana and poontang receiving departments.
It isn’t good, it isn’t bad, it just is.
>The devils might be ourselves then, as our allegiance to humanity is sometimes less than our desire to say “I told you so” when it all goes to Hell (our destined preserve? our revenge?).
Yup!
I think the tendency towards idiocy is built into the system, the great mysterious as Mr Ted says, or god if you prefer. Whatever.
>Some of these meme-viruses (sins) are just ugly.
Yup!
>(their parasitic “egos” or “personalities” — impostors in many cases, bad actors, full of
phony baloney (body snatchers..
Parasitic egos, I like that. I’d change many to most tho.
In my lifetime I’ve met 4 religious people who weren’t idiots. You may be the 5th. Most believe that religion transcends God which strikes me as insane.
Walt
hi guys,
well, you’ve added more comments that my comments here have not seen yet, so i’ll be back with more later.
just to refer back to it, not that we have to go there, my post ‘Mathematical Learning: A Journey into the Deep Subconscious’ was a revival of F. David Peat’s observation (citing Piaget) that as children we start from topology (spatial relations without yet dividing everything up into objects) and move up through forms (geometry) and algebra (internal speech) to arithmetic, … and as a society, we seem to be moving in the reverse direction, starting from simple numerical logic and working our way back towards topology (spatial-relations that transcend local objects).
and walt, since when has ‘war’ become more foundational to understanding than ‘organization’, the relation between space and matter? you say ‘wars happened long before language and bounded space were introduced as new technology’. not so fast, elG, … what is ‘war’? would that be ‘war’ as in euclidian space where we conflict is between two mutually exclusive groups, or ‘war’ as in non-euclidian spherical space where divergence is, at the same time, convergence due to ‘reciprocal compression’ (or Einstein’s reciprocal disposition).
what big Al is saying is that there cannot be two mutually exclusive sides to a conflict in non-euclidian space, and he further stated “Space is NOT Euclidian” i.e. there cannot be two mutually exclusive sides to a conflict), … “Space is a participant in physical phenomena” (space is a participant in war, … notice how the smell of war hangs in the air? imagine how the smell of nuclear war will hang in the air?).
name your space that goes with the ‘war’ that you intend in your comment. the encyclopedia says;
War:- A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
according to our western thinking, ‘between nations, states, parties’ means ‘between two mutually exclusive entities’. when we speak of two states A and B we assume that B = not.A and that A ≠ not.A
however, Amerindian culture thinks in terms of a mutually interdependent web-of-life as in relativity (one reason why F. David Peat wrote ‘Blackfoot Physics); i.e. their mental math was in terms of A = not.A otherwise known as the ‘yin-yang equation’ of fuzzy logic.
i would say that it makes a significant difference, in fighting a war, i understand it in those terms that ‘when i spit on my brothers, i spit on myself’, versus genocide. there is always conflict amongst brothers, but genocide would be insane unless one was coming from a euclidian space based mindset; i.e. our western culture.
now, you say; “the side with the inferior technology will be killed or sublimated”. that is impossible in a non-euclidian, A = not.A mindset. in non-euclidian space, there is just one collective and it will be ‘reorganized’ or ‘transformed’ by the war, there will NOT be separate sides (victor and vanquished). If your family has seven brothers and four of these gang up on three others and kill them, if all you are looking at is ‘brothers’ against a blank space, you colour the four green and the three red and speak of the greens being victors and the reds vanquished, but what if the family and the living space has greater meaning than the collection of inhabitants on their own? as poincare says, the space of our experience is nothing like the space of euclidian geometry.
i.e. when some of our brothers kills other of our brothers, our family will be transformed by tragedy.
once again, ‘the victors’ and ‘the vanquished’ are only mutually exclusive (A ≠ not.A) when we impose euclidian geometry on our observations of war. i.e.
“Space is another framework we impose upon the world” . . . ” . . . here the mind may affirm because it lays down its own laws; but let us clearly understand that while these laws are imposed on our science, which otherwise could not exist, they are not imposed on Nature.” . . . “Euclidian geometry is . . . the simplest, . . . just as the polynomial of the first degree is simpler than a polynomial of the second degree.” . . . “the space revealed to us by our senses is absolutely different from the space of geometry.” . . . Henri Poincaré, ’Science and Hypothesis’.
your statements about war assume euclidian space. your ‘war’ is not ‘war’ of the lakota people, therefore, you cannot claim that your victor/vanquished notions of war applies to them (nor to you/us either).
if you were lakota, you would say; ‘mitakuye oyasin’, we are all relatives, therefore ‘we are at war with ourselves’.
to a lakota (and to me), you are playing a language game when you say “European civilization is, at present, at war with the third world in general and Islam in particular’. European civilization is a mindset and so is Islam, and so are sovereign nation states. any war that one imputes victor and vanquished to, is a war in their heads; i.e. you got it upside down, it should be; “You’re getting too much in your head, elG”
* * *
kirby, the notion of space being pyramidal or something interests me (though i haven’t researched bucky in detail, because i didn’t agree with his upfront assumptions in Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking (static form focus, assumption that there is a real something called ‘the environment’ that is ‘not me’ (A ≠ not.A). on the other hand, he broke the western pattern and said that ‘the universe was everything including me’ which means that my awareness stands above me + universe, rather than awareness being a product of brain chemistry/physics (bucky is thus close to schroedinger, except that bucky still splits out the body from universe and calls (defines) the other thing besides the physical self ‘the environment’).
re einstein, yes, i’ve read some of his letters where he defends zionism seemingly in contradiction with his ‘anti-nationalism’ and as he says, ‘universal humanity’ is a goal that makes sense but at the present time, in a world that is pervasively intolerant, persecuted groups deserve the chance to come together and live in harmony according to their preferred traditions. fear and loathing have unfortunately set back the move towards ‘universal humanism’.
meanwhile, it seems to me that the Mitakuye oyasin (we are all relatives) is no longer applicable when topsided by ‘God has chosen you as a people’, so i would suppose that both Palestinians and Israelis understand their races/nations in an A ≠ not.A sense.
nationality is a not a real thing, it is a state of mind. it is based on an imaginary-line-bounded closed geometric form idealization that one treats as ‘real’. how can that dominate the communities or tribes within it. if i visit the navajo reserve in the four corners region, should i understand this community as being subsidiary to the US nation? the navajo will tell me that they signed treaties with colonizers that were couched in terms of two nations living side-by-side (e.g. the Jay Treaty in the east and similar treaties by aboriginals and government in Canada). the imaginary line boundary that delineates the US, as a separator of self from other, one nation (Canada) from another (US), is just for the believers, just for those who want to put this in their heads and believe in it. it is not real. it is a mind-game.
the distinction between victors and vanquished is similarly just in our heads, it is like blue house beating red house in intramural sports meets, it is in our heads. it only works if we think about a bunch of blue stickmen and a bunch of red stickmen on a blank background. if they are like storm-cells in a common flow (if space is a participant) then the spatial dynamic would dominate and we could not see the ‘two sides’ as being ‘mutually exclusive’.
now, if we do suspend our imposing of national boundaries and understand people as men of the world according to real-world dynamics that have been going on before some written words defined ‘the United States’ and didn’t stop and start again as the ‘independence’ of the US was ‘unilaterally declared’, then we would have in our mind this notion of a global swirling of people and spatial relations, which in fact is what is going on in our experience. that is, these people over here may be intelligent, kind and compassionate, … whether or not a sovereign state imaginary-line-boundary is zapped right through the middle of them. but if you critique the notion that is in their head, that ‘they are Americans’ because they live in the US and in their head the US really does ‘exist’ and begins to exist right where the imaginary-boundary-line is staked out and some fencing built to make it look real (the shortfall in realness being that the fence is only six feet high and the bounding surface extends vertically upwards for miles, … they think you are critiquing them when you are only critiquing one of the ideas that is rolling around in their head. the native who holds a Certificate of Indian Status card, lives just on the US side of the imaginary boundary line who carries both a Canadian and American passport in his back pocket may feel a bit schizophrenic when someone asks him ‘why did you guys invade iraq’. for him, legal definitions of who he is based on imaginary-boundary lines, do not take precedence over who he is in terms of his situational inclusion in the dynamic continuum of nature (which includes the global social dynamic).
in euclidian space we can look at the history/evolution of human society by dividing them all up into components and imagining them in competitions and conflicts with 1 and ‘other’ against a blank background but that is the euclidian view of humanity as a ‘local system’ and it ignores the ‘participation of space’, the inclusion in the suprasystem-system dynamic (the conjugate habitat-inhabitant relational dynamic), which is the more meaningful dynamic (it is what we experience and it includes the intra-humanity dynamic).
it is evident that when we talk about these things, e.g. ‘war’ between ‘nations’ and/or tribes, it is ambiguous as to which cultural preference for space we are using. is it ‘euclidian’ as walt uses in talking about war and victors and vanquished, or is it non-euclidian wherein there can be no mutual exclusion between two groups of people because in non-euclidian space, the dynamics of the habitat are conditioning the dynamics of the inhabitants at the same time as the dynamics of the inhabitants are conditioning the dynamics of the habitat; i.e. when you spit on the other group, you spit on yourself.
ted
Hi, all
a new kind of squishy, for Mr Ted.
http://keytoann.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/squishy/
walt
Hi Ted —
Again I thank you and Walt for including me.
Fuller’s Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking, is all on line, dunno if you
knew, along with Synergetics Dictionary (more recent), both works owing much to the
inveterate filer and organizer, the late E.J. Applewhite, sometimes introduced as Fuller’s
first teenage fan. A lifetime of collaboration. I had a lot more in-person time with Ed,
whereas I’d characterize much of my interaction with Bucky as telepathic or psychic or
something (Kiyoshi Kuromiya reported similar experiences). We also corresponded and
one time physically converged to Hunter College NY, where he talked a lot about courage
(I have vivid memories, would hope to see the videotape someday if it exists — I was
stressing out at the time, but then what else is new? Life is full of travails, especially when
you believe humans might be doing so much better for themselves and put one’s eggs in
that basket).
I love the Lakota connection here. When I met my wife to be, she was in this Lakota
medicine wheel training, pretty serious, lasted a few years. I joined the men’s equivalent.
She taught me to say ‘mitakuye oyasin’ and spoke often about ‘heyoka’.
I sense Fuller’s “me ball” was a variable that could expand and include. This mysterious chart
has nations on it, but they’re mixed with ideologies, where they belong, as constructs,
concepts. http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s10/p5460.html#1056.20
The Spaceship Earth meme, which Fuller coined, was designed to get us thinking about the
whole planet as one biosphere, our Promised Land (PL), our Israel (an easy fit for the theology,
with humans the new chosen ones). My on-line journals contain lots of PR for the PL. Other
memes: Global University and Motherboard Earth (ME). The latter features in an early manifesto
of sorts, which still holds water for me, after all these years:
http://grunch.net/archives/27
It starts like this:
“””
I propose we look at Starship Earth (Buckminster Fuller’s metaphor for our planet) using another
metaphor as well: that of Motherboard Earth.
I tip my hat to the criticism that this is another off-base nerdy engineering lens through which
to misperceive a living planet and that, although the “mother” part is apt, linking to circuit
boards is just more Newtonian mechanism, more of which we simply don’t need.
But I don’t see it that way myself. I think of the powerful film images I’ve seen linking urban-
scapes from high altitudes with microchips. Good native American-sounding titles like
Powaqqatsi and Koyanisqaatsi come to mind (both interesting films). And the energy bathing
our motherboard is more than metaphorically electrical.
In sum, I don’t see “motherboard” as necessarily whiteman talk at all, but a clear-eyed snapshot
of what, in fact, our eco-economy is: a set of spherical circuits, layer upon layer, some phased
in with humans just a split second ago, on the geologic timescale.
“””
Then I go on to provide a critique of banking. This stuff later fed into my critique of Economics,
which holds that monopolies breed laziness and complacency. If so, then Economics itself,
the discipline, should experience some competition, should not assume it has sole “jurisdiction” over bread and butter issues. Enter General Systems Theory (GST), not my coin,
but I’m the one to spin it as competition for Economics, a rival discipline.
http://www.grunch.net/synergetics/gst1.html
http://www.grunch.net/synergetics/gst2.html
http://www.grunch.net/synergetics/gst3.html
I think Fuller handed it to us on a plate in a lot of ways: a deep philosophy, lots of inventions
and breakthroughs, awards and recognition. Hard to dismiss as a crank (though people do of
course) and full of post-nationalist rhetoric. His questioning of authority in the mathematical
realm really took him places. He has lots of polemics against a Euclidean schoolish math,
would, I think, be quite at home in your situational ethics / aesthetics.
I like your use of “language game” which I also use. Wittgenstein is another one of my heros.
His ‘Philosophical Investigations’ is all about the games people play. I’m also a fan of
R.D. Laing and loved his twisted “we are them” poetry, full of ironies. To carry on as we do,
in a human family feud, is indeed insane. Per the WMBS (“white mans burden syndrome”) it
stems from a belief in lethal physical insufficiency, even where much engineering points to a
possible level out of population curves as a consequence of electrification. So much of
humanity is still under-served, global U students languishing, because the curriculum is still
weak. Starvation = Torture. As a Quaker against torture, I have to be focused on Food
Services.
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2010/07/marketing-campaigns.html
The above journal entry lists some of my “media campaigns”, the last of which is called
“Aristotle was right”, which, in this namespace, might raise some eyebrows (the spin here is
he was oh so wrong).
However, I’m yakking about a very specific matter, which has to do with what shapes fill
space. Aristotle’s apologists have pointed out he never said ‘regular’ when asserting
tetrahedra fill space, and, in fact, some irregular tetrahedra *do* tessellate space without
gaps (as do rhombic dodecahedra).
Applewhite spent a lifetime seeking readers who’d go deep, not disconnect after a few pages.
I was one of the few.
That unit-volume tetrahedron divides easily and smoothly into a related cube, octahedron,
rhombic dodecahedron, cuboctahedron with ratios exactly 3,4,6,20. These shapes fit into
the world of sphere packing, a backdrop for physics and chemistry…. The right brain lights
up with deeper appreciation for spatial relationships, for topology.
Another animated GIF for Walt:
http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/cp4e.html (up top)
But to write in this way just sounds densely Greek (“it’s all Greek to me”). “We the people”
glaze over. Perhaps the hippies weren’t self-disciplined enough? Is that why this opportunity
to radicalize and get technical, to end world hunger, was passed over? Fuller was a teleologist,
thinking cosmic pressure was pushing humanity to make a success of itself. That’s like saying
“space” or “the planetary situation” is NOT just a neutral backdrop, so much passive scenery.
I’d agree.
Again, from many years ago, maybe just eyeball it quickly, checking the pictures, gives the
flavor of a possible future we might yet explore.
http://www.4dsolutions.net/synergetica/synergetica1.html
Why not share this stuff with young people in math class? The whiteman does not do so, even
though high def TV is everywhere, including in coffee shops.
Is he too proud to change his ways, too insecure? Too into bread and circuses of a cruelly
Roman variety? Most egos want to be spectators (theater critics) not participants (actors).
The pressure to act locally (in work / study programs) is real, but without a strong curriculum
(for thinking globally), do our actions make any sense? Persistent awkwardness and poor
coordination, a lack of self-organization, suggests our “structural knowledge” is failing us.
Some kind of awakening is needed?
Too much attention to Economics? GST is more situational perhaps, more left handed (right
brained).
I’m supposed to pick up food on the way to compost from a warehouse and deliver it to the
cooks. Lets see how that goes. Bicycle workout. Good for a 52 year old. I spattered toxic
poison in my eye this morning, trying to unclog a drain in a stupid way. Seems I’m OK, but
when it comes to persistent awkwardness and poor coordination, I don’t consider myself
above the fray. Another idiot on Hell Planet, trying to improve matters… (I have an investment
in things getting better, silly me).
Kirby Urner
Dymaxion Clown
elG, you are a confident cuss!
would you have the powers, still within you, to suspend your model-imposing on everything for just a moment and listen, really listen (in the sense of opening up your coherency sensing capacities for ‘other’ patterns), … it won’t take long.
i do not believe in the completeness of your or any model that puts everything inside the head. my experience informs me that my body is included in the flow of the universe and that understanding can come to me by that inclusion that does not depend on my voyeur brain sitting apart from the world i am included in. i do not limit my awareness to, as you say “the land of the squishy”, “perception and thought”, “mythos and logos”, “yin-as-mythos and yang-as-logos”, as iterative combos.
by the way, congratulations on a nice model, but it is not the only model in the world, so if you haven’t celebrated its success by giving all your model-developing capacities a golden handshake and wishing them a long and happy retirement, … bring them back for old time’s sake, for an exhibition game where they can once again show their skills in assembling an unknown-beforehand model and demonstrating to their sponsor, who has been preoccupied by seeing everything as a nail to be hammered by his mother of all models, that he can use a little novelty in his life.
here goes;
i am not in the same ‘modeling camp’ as bucky and einstein who both say that the ‘environment is everything but me’ (where one’s brain is separate from and therefore free and independent to, as a voyeur, perceive and muse about the world ‘out there’), but i am in the same modeling camp as schroedinger and poincaré and mcluhan, who acknowledge that we are included, lock, stock and barrel, in the dynamic Oneness of nature/universe. and, yes, that happens to be the same ‘modeling camp’ as the Amerindian traditionalists (a relatively rare item amongst today’s population of Amerindians; i.e. the portion that has not given up on their natural awareness of inclusion in the universe, not because they ARE NOT STILL FULLY INCLUDED IN THE UNIVERSE but because they have decommissioned their awareness of inclusion. that’s what happens when one is ‘co-opted’ into the western common-belief based mental modeling habit.).
my assumptions are simple, but as Einstein said, simple assumptions can lead to much complexity, and it has been our scientific practice to complexify our assumptions UPFRONT (infusing absolute space and absolute time and mutual exclusivity of space/field and matter) so as to simplify the deductive outflow that we use to simulate reality starting from our upfront assumptions.
my assumptions parallel those of Ernst Mach’s and Poincaré’s and Schroedinger’s and they come from my experience/intuition just as theirs did. in fact they are not really assumptions, they are the absence of any imposing of these contrived assumptions of absolute space, absolute time and the mutual exclusivity of space-and-matter, self-and-other, … such assumptions as facilitate our talking (language comes in here bigtime) about ‘local objects with their own behaviour’.
if everything is included in the dynamic Oneness of nature (the energy-field-flow which parents local flow-features that are contiinually gathering and regathering) then we have the so-called yin-yang equation of fuzzy logicians. as Bart Kosko says, fuzzy logic is the logic of our natural world experience A = not.A, the hurricane is its environment and it is language that allows us to artificially over-ride that and to claim that A ≠ not.A, that the hurricane is a local system with its own internal drive and direction, a local object, A, that builds its strength and moves north and wreaks destruction on its not.A environment, and that is all we hear about on television news reports and that which is reported by way of language in newspapers and books. it is almost all A ≠ not.A, “the environment is everything that is not me” mental modeling;.
but our experience is that we live in a space where opposites are included in a common space. the poker may be perfectly symmetric with respect to its middle but when you put one end in the fire it then has a hot end and a cool end and the hot end, feeling sorry for the cool end, sends some of its atomic excitedness down to perk up the cool end. the polarization of the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ does not imply ‘mutual exclusivity’ in nature (the thermal field is everywhere at the same time), only by imposing logical declarations such as is done where gold or oil is discovered, the empire builders define an imaginary-line bounded area called a ‘sovereign state’ that declares the resources and the mining operations within the logical-legal ring-fence to be a ‘local system’ (a total abstraction). similarly, the hurricane is not a ‘local system’ but a gift from the equatorial region to the polar region, it is the left hand shaking hands with the right hand. the notion that the hurricane is a ‘local system with its own locally originating behaviour’ is just our western mental modeling habit in action. we create local systems with language and logic, they do not exist in nature. i repeat, our natural experience does not affirm that there is anything in nature that is in an A ≠ not.A relation.
so, in this model i am describing where the yin/yang, A = not.A, equation ALWAYS applies (where no-thing is local), language is a problem because, as john stuart mill observed “every definition implies an axiom, that in which we affirm the local existence of the object defined.”
when someone utters the word ‘brain’, our western mental modeling habit goes to work and portrays ‘the brain’ to us as a ‘local system with its own local behaviour’ ….. here we go, … its A ≠ not.A all over again, … implying that the brain has local powers of perception and musing. this is an assumption that is contrived. it is not an assumption that is affirmed by our experience, but it is one of those assumptions that ‘makes things come out simpler in the resulting modeling’ and it pleases our ego since we would like to understand ourselves as ‘individuals’ who are ‘not connected to the rest’, who ‘think for ourselves’ as if our ‘independent thinking’ somehow overrides the consciousness implied by the ongoing organization that is pervasive in nature.
now, Nietzsche put his finger on what was going on here. he claimed that we took our ego-based emotions and infused them into our scientific logical modeling approach. more specifically, he said that we took our emotions of ‘repulsion’ and ‘attraction’ and infused them into ‘mechanics’ even though they have no meaning in a purely mechanical sense without assuming ‘intention’ (this Aristotelian engine that westerners purport powers everything living).
do you see what i see? all of this stuff about ‘repulsion’ and ‘attraction’ which depend, in turn, on ‘intention’, are there to make everything come out right if we assume that we, a human individual, is a ‘local system with its own locally originating, intention-directed behaviour that interacts in absolute fixed and empty space and absolute time.
the trio, ‘attraction’, ‘repulsion’ and ‘intention’ are the ingredients needed to trash yin/yang A = not.A equation and make everything ‘local’; i.e. to substitute the A ≠ not.A equation (Aristotelian syllogism).
our western language is full of words that signify ‘local systems’, systems that enjoy local independent existence within an absolute fixed and empty reference space. these are called ‘nouns’ or ‘substantives’ (a noun that designates an object).
ok, now language gives to us a local object sitting in an absolute fixed and empty space. what next? well, how the hell are we going to get it to move? if we are not willing to let space participate as the female aspect of a conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation, and we want to keep space separate from the objects in it (if we want to maintain our A ≠ not.A equation for our ‘local object/system’) then we need to invent a ‘verb’ to go together with the noun and serve as a ‘locally applied force’ (either internally acting local force or externally applied local force). ralph’s biochemicals are firing up his brain and body activity and steering it from the inside. see the local system known as Ralph run? nothing outside of Ralph caused that, did it? (no, stop, says the western man with his western common belief set, i do not want to talk about the flow that ralph came from that he will be retuning into. let’s keep this simple and now that we can ‘see’ Ralph, and having named him and having defined him as a local system, let’s just approach this in KISS fashion and start from there, from his ‘being’. if we invent a sufficient number of local internal systems-nesting-within-systems inside of him and a sufficient number of verbs (processes-within-processes) to portray what these local systems-within-systems do, then by-and-by we will have so much to occupy ourselves with that we will forget all about ‘the flow that Ralph came from that he will be regathered into’; i.e. we will forget all about the nonlocal organizing that organized this so-called ‘local system’.
our language game can keep us busy, digging deeper into Ralph’s internals and developing our A ≠ not.A structure within its absolute space and absolute time operating theatre. we will call this scrabble-like game ‘science’. poincare in ‘science and hypothesis’ and ‘the value of science’ duly notes that the sciences are language games.
its all bullshit, but we have built western civilization upon it (but don’t confuse the map for the territory or the civilization for the people).
now, people are still people and we don’t have to confuse our language games with reality and our real life dynamics/experience is often spontaneously orchestrated by the dynamics of space we are included in, in a manner that has nothing to do with visual perception and musing on what is going on, as when we were infants in our pre-lingual state; i.e. we haven’t lost that awareness of our conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation, we’ve just buried it under layers of knowledge and intellection and iterative mythos and logos.
western civilization is a mind-game. one by one, people whose common beliefs (and nothing more) supports the imaginary-boundary-line delineations of local, (self-declared) independently-existing sovereign nation-states regather and entire nations disappear and new ones appear that are consolidations of former ones or fragmentations of former ones, and this can happen as many times as you like because it is all a mindgame, there is no reality to ‘nationhood’, there is only ‘common belief’ and oaths of loyalty to common beliefs, and the winds and waters and animals and birds and insects don’t pay any attention to this game, unless they bump into a 10 foot high fence where people are trying to add a bit more reality to the imaginary boundaries that enable the game and to prove that those mexican nationals south of the fence relate to those american nationals north of the fence by the A ≠ not.A equation; i.e. in western civilization, the commonness of humanity gets trumped by the mutual exclusivity applied via word-adornment. by the time one of those brown-skinned south-of-the-fence families gets over the fence and spends a couple of generations north of the fence, they are ready to join the border patrol and fire warning shots at their former brothers to get them to back off from trying to get over that fence because “you are going to spoil it for us.’. we don’t want you to dilute what we’ve got. we are a local system that is a powerful producer of wealth. respect our A ≠ not.A status and we will respect your A ≠ not.A status; i.e. our respective soveriegn states have both declared our ‘independence’ and this must be respected, even if the winds and rivers and birds ignore it; i.e. our belief in our A ≠ not.A status must over-ride our experience of common inclusion in nature’s dynamics.
* * *
walt, all of that stuff you said about primates following Naomi Wolf’s 10 steps has no support from our experience and you know it. you can use any argument you like because your model is not grounded in anything. in your model the right mind keeps coming up with revisions to the prior model due to shortfalls and the left mind takes over (current ‘best guess’) and hammers it out as a logical construction. to you, ‘reality’ sits outside of this iterative mythos-logos dynamically iterating duo. your model doesn’t not open itself up to refutation by common experience because in it, ‘the brain’ and ‘reality’ relate by way of the A ≠ not.A relation. the ‘brain’ in your model, is a voyeur, that perceives a reality apart from itself, muses about it, and constructs logical models based on its current ‘best guess’.
you are good at this ‘iterating’, you do not get stuck like your ‘idiots’ who accept the current ‘best guess’ without any need to iterate on it, and amongst those who do iterate (the ‘centreds’), you are one of the few who care about keeping this iteration going, and not getting held up by the ‘idiots’ and/or the uncaring ‘centreds’.
ok, this gives you a way of classifying people that sort of matches my own, but i don’t buy your model. or more precisely, i prefer a model that is grounded in natural experience (i often refer to the world of natural experience as ‘reality’ to distinguish it from the ‘idealization’ of A ≠ not.A based models where the brain and reality are in a A ≠ not.A relation).
for my part, I suspend ALL foundational A ≠ not.A assumptions such as are invoked by imposing euclidian geometry which sets up ‘local systems with their own behaviour’ such as ‘the brain’ with its notional ‘mythos and logos’ capacities that sits apart from ‘reality’.
that is, i start off from A = not.A as the base case; e.g. as is the case of the atmosphere and the hurricanes, and in general the (energy-field-flow) habitat and its inhabitants, where matter is energy in concentration as in an inwelling in the energy-flow-field, a singularity as where oxygen inwells into a candle flame to keep it burning. but the oxygen doesn’t disappear from nature, it is transformed and outwells, hidden under the skirt of more complex forms. transformation conserves energy but not matter since matter is just a gathering of energy in the energy-field-flow. transformation is, topologically, toroidal flow, inwelling and outwelling in a single package, a dynamical Oneness like nature; i.e. it is an archetype of nature and it looks like THIS (but imagine the colours changing with phase along the cycle from inwelling to outwelling.
so, i get a three way split in the populace just like you do, walt, but from different initial assumptions (from a different modeling approach). in my model there are those that take language literally. this means that they accept the A ≠ not.A imputations built into language thus when someone quotes from the Bible or says ‘Katrina is heading north’, or ‘the Germans are invading France’, they accept this literally; i.e. they confuse this for ‘reality’. the next group understands that this is over-simplification that the hurricane is just a feature in the flow that we conveniently personify, and they accept the same same for Europe, a collection of people whose historical swirling around and interpermeating has never ceased, who form political groupings that pull ‘imaginary blankets’ over their head from time to time called ‘local sovereign states’ or self-declared-as-independent (A ≠ not.A) ‘sovereign states’ using the common belief in the ‘independent local existence’ of these notional ‘sovereign states’ to organize them by way of a central authority, but this second group has a ‘when in Rome, do as the Romans’ attitude and stays with their ‘oath of loyalty’ to the common belief based idealization of ‘local independent statehood’ (accepting the central authoritarian control based organizing approach). the third group rather than staying with an ‘oath of loyalty’, is coming from a ‘loathe-of-fealty’ to common belief based top-down central authority and all of that A ≠ not.A bullshit that is propagated by our A ≠ not.A based noun and verb language.
so, i end up with (a) ‘literalists’ (fundamentalists) who believe that the A ≠ not.A language based world views of the Bible and of Bible-thumping politicians is ‘real’, and (b) relationists who acknowledge that the A ≠ not.A idealizations of language are over-simplified idealizations, and (c) a smaller group within the ‘relationists’ who are unwilling to go along with the top-down authoritarian control that is the inevitable form of organization once one views the world as a collection of local objects/systems/organisms populating an absolute fixed and empty (euclidian) space, and who acknowledge that the dynamic space they share inclusion in (are in a conjugate habitat-inhabitant dynamic relation with) has innate orchestrating/organizing properties (which can not only organize our behaviour [if we attune to it] but which is continually organizing the physicality and mentality of our inwelling/outwelling being).
for comparison purposes, we can review your model as follows; (you start off by declaring ‘the inside of the skull’ as being in an A ≠ not.A relation with ‘reality’ and you say this is ‘obvious’ to you’ (it certainly isn’t obvious to me, but it is obvious to me that it is an abstract assumption imposed by you, that makes your model work the way it does, in an ungrounded in reality fashion);
Reality is real. Call it universe, great mysterious, god, space time continuum, Tao, ether if you prefer, doesn’t matter. It’s just a word for something that won’t fit inside our skulls. This seems obvious to me but apparently not to others.
Now we leave the land of reality and enter the land of squishy. (inside the skull) Nothing here is real. We see and we think about what we see.
As to what we see I’ll call yin and yang (it’s kinda close) the yin being the perception of reality and yang being the interpretation of reality.
As to what we think about what we see I’ll call mythos and logos (it’s kinda close) Mythos being what we muse about yin and logos being what we think about yang.
The logos and mythos are compared and used to make a decision on what we do about yin and yang. None of this is reality. Reality, and only reality, is real.
The squishy occurs with the yin and mythos part of this operation, with various duality views confusing one or the other or both but mostly neither for reality. (if they bother to think about it)
Most people are not aware of yin and mythos. (idiots) Most of the remainder don’t care. (centered) But a few, a very few do. (transcedents)
I repeat, Mr Ted, You’re too much in your head, you’re overthinking this. Keep in mind I do agree with what you’re saying, you’re just incomplete. You’ve replaced the concepts with words. The word is not the concept. This is a new kind of squishy to me. Fascinating.
no, walt, i haven’t replaced any concepts with words, what i’ve done differently is that, like schroedinger and his wave-based view of nature, i have not imposed the A ≠ not.A split between inside-the-skull and reality as you have. i see no reason/justification for imposing any local declarations of independence (of what’s inside the skull vis a vis the real natural living space dynamics that we all share inclusion in).
that’s about it as far as i can make out. you choose to build the abstract A ≠ not.A logic into the foundations of your mentally modeled world view and i choose not to impose such logical biases into the foundations of my worldview. we get to much the same place by different foundational assumptions. meanwhile, as the joke you cite goes, if you were in a competition with God for mentally modeling a view of the world, when you came to the part where you said’ i have this magic weapon, this stuff within my skull that i am going to use, …. God would interrupt and say, … ‘use your own stuff!’.
ted
It’s not a model, it’s an observation. An observation i’ve been aware of since before i knew there was a mind. i may use different words, and yes i do learn, but nonetheless that’s how my minds work, and as far as I can tell that’s how everyone’s minds are supposed to work. simply put i have a closer relationship with my subconscious than is normal, i.e. my subconscious ain’t all that sub. and i have found it to be cognizant, albeit at a low level, and am able to communicate, in symbol format, with it. You’re asking me to set aside my mind, a hardly practical solution.
I don’t understand why you think that I disagree with anything you say. You’re right, as far as you go. righter than anyone else i have looked at, including me and the people you like to quote.
Mr kirby just mentioned us playing volleyball, he’s closer than he may realize. i view it as ping pong, at the normal communication method of idiots, where one presurmised paddle bats the concept across the net to be met by another presurmised paddle. we only think we’re thinking. What we have here instead is something you “know” is being confronted by something I “know”. i would like you to consider the possibility that we are both right. that’s what i think. and in the banging together of two seemingly mutually exclusive ‘knowns’ wisdom may emerge.
walt
hi kirby,
enjoyed your comment and found it full of this movement back from arithmetic through geometry towards topology.
my ‘rejection’ of fuller is not really ‘rejection’ in the sense that i reject the value of his shift to geometry. i reject it in the same sense as i reject the Gaia hypothesis even though i view as being in the needed direction, away from the dependency on the parts to looking instead at the ‘synergetics’ of the inter-relationships amongst the parts and how that ‘transcends’ anything the parts are capable of doing ‘on their own’ (or as a linear composite thereof)
all of this, in the case of Gaia and Fuller is achieved via the ‘foreground figures’ without having to empower the blank space of the white page on which they are drawn. it is like encouraging belief in the intrinsic capabilities of a flock of wildgeese (they can fly farther and faster for less energy expenditure than they could ever do in solo mode). this ‘synergetics’ that comes form ‘group action’ is a kind of belief in itself that does not require us to speak of a resonant relation with the dynamic space we are included in. if we want to go beyond talking about ‘synergetics’ in a flock of wildgeese or in the passengers on ‘spaceship earth’ or ‘gaia’, then we have to ‘break down’ and allow space to be a participant in physical dynamics as in ‘relativity’.
now, when we talk about the synergetics of wildgeese, we have to talk about ‘airflow’ and the relationship between the dynamics of flow and the dynamics of wildgeese within the flow and how resonance can arise in the conjugate geese-airflow relation that can orchestrate/organize individual and collective geese behaviour so as to explain the synergetics which were previously expressed in terms THINGS and how THEY were in mutually supportive synergetics-producing relationship.
the ‘spaceship earth’ imagery is like the ‘spaceship-V-wing’ imagery where we see the wildgeese as passengers on a common ‘bus’. the ethic of acknowledging a shared destiny is valuable, but yet there is this notion that ‘cooperation’ is what is needed which is still this Aristotelian ‘teleological’ notion wherein, as you note, Fuller’s imagery is in terms of “cosmic pressure is pushing humanity to make a success of itself”.
this is backwards to me, nature has gathered humanity into being therefore humanity is needed for the completeness of nature. we can’t just start from what we have, ‘humanity’ and start trying to guess at what motivates it. that takes humanity apart from nature and has us trying to figure out how to put humanity back into nature.
as emerson says, nature not only inhabits the organism (infuses cosmic organizing influence) but it creates the organism (it is made of cosmic organizing influence).
now, as mentioned, it is a a step ‘in the right direction’ to go from local isolated objects to the synergetics of mutually supportive collections of objects, and that was where Einstein seemed to be coming from with Israel; i.e. in a space that is tolerant and does not discriminate there is no need to look for synergetics in terms of the cooperation of multiple objects whose cooperation is being pushed intentionally from their interiors, so the condition of the humanity is not at present self-similar to the condition of nature as a whole (the mountains and valleys do not react differently to man than to bears or wolves etc; i.e. nature does not discriminate and give preferential treatment to its offspring.)
if we were all onboard the spaceship earth concept and accepted our ‘shared destiny’, this would dissolve the exclusive ‘pursuit of self-interest’ that comes from seeing ourselves as ‘local, independent systems with our own locally originating behaviours’. ‘synergetics’ is a concept that appeals to our intellect in that ‘what we are able to do’ is inherently greater as a ‘collective’ than as individuals. this intellectual incentive still doesn’t have to acknowledge the orchestrating role of the dynamic space we are included in, by way of a conjugate habitat-inhabitant relation (e.g. as in Mach’s principle).
you bring up the other alternative (the one i am ‘on’) where you say that ‘the economy itself’ should have competition.
what this brings out is our habit to define something as a local system and then proceed to explain it starting from our definition. this was what newton said was the shortfall in his laws; i.e. they started from local systems such as the solar system but were innately incapable of explaining how these systems came to be. the solar system did not produce itself, it is included, as all notional ‘local systems are’, in a suprasystem, but we localize it by framing it in absolute space so that the behaviours we see are now relative to a fixed euclidian frame rather than to the dynamic space (suprasystem) that the notional ‘local system’ is included in (‘spatial-relationally’ in the manner of the hurricane in the flow of the atmosphere).
so, bucky’s ‘spaceship earth’ and/or Gaia, has a behaviour; i.e. it is moving like hurricane Katrina is said to move. is this ‘its own behaviour’? are is that an illusion we get by framing it in a space which it relates to by the Aristotelian A ≠ not.A logical assumption. (logic of the excluded middle). if it is included in a suprasystem then its behaviour is not its own and so it cannot ‘move through space’, the situation instead being that ‘space is moving (enfolding/unfolding) and spaceship earth and/or Gaia is a flow-feature within that spatial flow.
so, the cosmos expresses itself through us in both cases (bucky’s and schroedingers) but in bucky’s case we must interpret what the cosmos wants us to do and get on its bandwagon. this means that we must be intellectually aware of where we are going (we must be intention driven or teologically directed).
on the other hand, in schroedinger’s case (or Emerson’s, Mach’s, Poincaré’s) our relationship with others is not directly synergetic and intellect-directed and teleological in its operation, but it is laundered or mediated by the dynamics of space in which we all share inclusion. that is, we may say that there is synergy associated with several contemporaneous hurricanes or whorls in a flow and how they whip up the flow, but it is really the flow that has whipped up the whorls. the relationship being that ‘the dynamics of the habitat/flow is conditioning the dynamics of the inhabitants/whorls at the same time as the dynamics of the inhabitants/whorls are conditioning the dynamics of the habitat/flow”. the hurricanes don’t have to be seen as purposeful systems that push out of themselves (like an Aristotelian acorn-to-oak-tree teleology) to produce the synergy, we can instead see the synergy as deriving from an inherent quality in the flow of nature, that of orchestrating/organizing the behaviours and dynamic forms that emerge within it.
ok, we are going back from the number system and arithmetic of local humans, to the synergetics in the geometric relationship amongst people, and further on in this direction is the inherently interconnecting harmony in the topological relationships as with multiple toroidal flows within a common flow.
what happens in going from infancy to adulthood in our intellect/mathematics infused cultural belief systems, is that we learn how to ‘turn off’ our natural attuning to the spatial-relational dynamics we are included in, so that we can work in arithmetic and geometric modes.
what bucky proposes amounts to switching off the arithmetic mode so that geometric mode now rises back into the helm position. the push of intention, teleology, cosmic pressure is still implied and ‘intention’ is intellect based so we don’t yet open up all of our steering capabilities, but we are all equipped to turn off both the arithmetic and geometric modes that we learned in our post-pre-lingual infancy so that we can be directly informed by our pre-lingual, pre-geometric topological (spatial-relational) situational experience.
we only have to tesselate space if we first create a bounded space-frame, if we already have a finite and unbounded space such as the space on the surface of a sphere, we can get a tesselation that is ‘sure to work’ by shrinkage (taking away rather than filling in) as in hexagonal mudcracks
it is our habit to be always imposing organization rather than letting the dynamics of space orchestrate/organize the inhabitants.
so, are those of us who are, really ‘trying to improve matters’, or are we letting ourselves be orchestrated by the dynamics of space that we are situationally include in?
are we like the hurricane that feels it is in its robin hood nature to be responding to an energy surplus in the equatorial regions and an energy deficiency in the polar regions? or in the case of our human selves, do we attribute everything to locally originating, intellect and intention directed behaviour?
if we live in a potlatch economy, do we understand the potlatch as ‘starting from’ giving? this does our ego good; “here you are, poor ones, take this kindness and generosity from me. my name is ronald reagan and i believe that the ‘superior performers’ should let some of their own self-produced wealth trickle down to the inferior performers’, … or should we see it more as in the game of passing a hot potato wherein what comes around goes around. as chief maquinna said, the potlatch system was the indian’s version of the white man’s bank. instead of saving wealth, pass it around from regions of surplus to regions of deficiency as is nature’s way. the interest paid is then in terms of the heart being warmed.
in conclusion, i think that bucky’s move to over-ride arithmetic with geometry is in the right direction, but the ‘teleology’ of ‘synergetics’ still leaves things in an ‘intellect-and-intention-directed behavioural mode, and if can get to topology as in the toroidal flow, we can understand ourselves more in maquinnas than reagan’s terms; i.e. we can let go of the ego as the place where ‘the buck starts’ in producing and giving and acknowledge that nature is the common wealth and that we are intermediaries in the distribution of wealth, not local first-cause producers and local first-cause donors.
ted
walt,
whether we call it a model or ‘your observation’, what you express has value for me, and it stands out as having value in a sea of ‘observation’ or ‘models’ or ‘opinion’ that, to me, is loaded with dysfunction infusing incompletenesses.
i do have a ‘problem’ though, a small ‘hair’ on your 3 croisette menu, and it is your insistence on seeing organization as being the product of the individual mind. you express this by way of the argument that all men are the same and imputing to me the notion that there is a ‘homo lakota’.
no, that is not what i’m saying, i’m saying that the amerindian culture lets its communities be orchestrated by the dynamics of the space they are situated in. i am saying that the organizating capacities of the dynamic space of nature innately transcend the organizing capacities of the brains of humans so that the amerindian still retains the capacity of infancy to attune to the spatial-relational dynamics he shares situational inclusion within, so that his societal organization is beyond what his intellect and intention can deliberately produce (this is like kirby’s firm hand on the tiller that cannot see the result of his own behaviour because, in my terms, he is in conjugate habitat-inhabitant relational mode).
so, by allowing that the spatial-relational dynamics we are included in can source organization that surpasses anything we can do by the deliberate assertive application of our intellect-and-intention-directed behaviour, i am speaking of a model for organization that transcends any model of the individual, his observations, his intellect, whatever.
and, yes, its true, i have to let go of my intellect to get to what that model is informing me.
now, you say;
“You’re asking me to set aside my mind, a hardly practical solution.
but i am saying that i wouldn’t ask you or anyone to do what i was unwilling to do myself. try it, and see what happens.
ted
Having two minds is an observation, it’s not a model, nor a theory, nor intellectualizing nor any other activity. I knew I had two minds before i heard the word minds, in the sense I knew i had two hands before i knew what the word hand was. and it appears that everyone has two minds in the same sense as my mother had two hands before i knew what the word hand was. I am willing to entertain the possibility that i am some kind of mutant that is aware of two minds, which awareness possibly has a negative survival value. What I cannot accept is a dual explanation of the man/universe relationship, be it of a particle or a wave nature perception. that means either a. i don’t exist or b. the universe doesn’t exist. both of which i consider highly improbable.
intrinsic/extrinsic ain’t gonna hack it when you get inside the skull. It’s a three part system which is not being addressed. you had it once when you observed that my description of the right mind sounded like it belonged in the “extrinsic” reality. That’s probably true. nonetheless, it’s inside the skull. i’m winging it here, possibly the relationship is reality, sub-set reality, interpretation. but whatever words you use, one element is unaddressed. as long as you treat the mind as being in a vacuume, intrinsic/extrinsic is certainly valid. that view, however doesn’t help me in what i’m interested in which is “why are people idiots?” doesn’t help you in your communication either BTW.
where did you ever get the idea that i think the mind has independent organizational skills? that’s what an idiot thinks.
walt
hi ted —
there might be some namespace issues to resolve, re Synergetics, getting the translation
right (to English or whatever).
I’ve got a couple long quotes from Synergetics here. I won’t plan on doing this again in
these comments, just wanna give the flavor in this context of talking about “space”.
“Space” is used to mean “what coheres” but is also “what’s not tuned in” — where what
*is* tuned in is the special case experience of whatever’s in the moment (thoughts,
feelings…)
Whatever we’re not thinking or experiencing in the moment: that’s space. Special case is
the episodic “time tunnel” aka “roller coaster” aka “world line” we’re moving through, or
call it a scenario.
Universe is defined as partially overlapping scenarios in Synergetics, without any
conceptual “whole” i.e. you never get Universe-in-a-box as some special case,
tuned-in experience.
[ People imagine a Big Bang like some explosion in the mind’s eye. Who’s looking?
Obvious, in-your-face nonsense (the mental image, any theory aside). ]
Clearly not everyone (closer to no one) is using these key words in just the way Bucky
uses them. That’s why a Synergetics Dictionary comes in handy.
He had his own meanings for these words, defined operationally through mutually
reinforcing internal usage patterns — not atypical for philosophers to do this (Wittgenstein
did it too). One learns a new language of sorts, banking on pre-existing meanings and
associations (a common heritage).
===
526.26 Out is any-directional. You go in to go out because out is not only any direction
but is all directions — electromagnetically speaking it is “tuned-out.” (See Sec. 905.21.) *In* is
what we are thinking about now. *In* is the momentary reality into which we are tuned. All the
rest is for the moment tuned-out but equally real as the information or experience is
progressively tuned-in.
526.27 Physics finds that Universe has no solid things surrounded by, and interspersed
with, space. Life is an inventory of tuning-ins and tuning-outs of experience. Birth is the first
tuning in; death may not be the last.
526.30 Systematic Communication of Space
526.31 Space is the invisible complementation of the cognitive system. Like the rubber
glove, cognition is left hand; space is inside-out right hand, and vice versa.
526.32 Space is the unconsidered complement of the conceptually considered episode
and its only neighboringly overlapped episodes of Scenario Universe. Space is the untuned-in
complement of considerability and conceptuality.
tuned & untuned
in & out
526.33 Special case is always tune-in-able. Special case is imaginable by brain.
Conceptuality is a function of mind. Conceptuality is a priori independent of special case
frequency tunability. Conceptuality is generalized, and the space complementation of
generalized conceptuality is generalized. Space is generalization. Death is the omnidirectional
otherness of as-yet physically realized Scenario Universe. Death is the as-yet unborn set of
all the unconsidered special cases of all the as-yet undiscovered — ergo, as-yet-
unconsidered — generalized principles.
526.34 Conceptuality and its complementary space generalizations do not account or
embrace the a priori mystery, the integrity of eternally regenerative Scenario Universe. All the
inherent, concentric, systemic conceptuality, its internal spatial intervals, and its external
spatial embracement are altogether both subordinate and supraordinate to the
non-considerability of such a priori mystery as . . . How come Universe?
===
I’ll risk another longish quote, as I think these passages contain a strong sense of nature
driving, with humans misperceiving themselves as controllers (as “Mr. Big”):
===
1024.22 Man talks carelessly and ignorantly of such words as chaos … turbulence … turmoil
… and (the popular, modern) pollution … where nothing but absolute order is subvisibly
maintained by nature and her transformation arrangements unfamiliar to man. Universe does
not have any pollution. All the chemistries of Universe are always essential to the integrity of
eternal intertransformation and eternal self-regeneration.
Physicists invent nothing.
Chemists invent nothing.
… They find out what nature does from time to time and learn something of what her laws of
rearrangement may be, and fortunate humans employ those rules to cooperate consciously
with nature’s evolution.
1024.23 All humans, endowed at birth with a billion capabilities beyond the knowledge of the
parents, evolve in ways that are an utter mystery to them. The exquisite, myriadly endowed
child employs that mysterious endowment and intuitionally apprehends itself as inventor of
ways of using the orderly laws of Universe to produce tools, substances, and service
integrities, to communicate and allow humans to participate in Universe’s ever-transforming
evolutionary events in an as yet preposterously meager degree, which has given rise to a
nature-permitted variety of little humans on tiny planet Earth each becoming Mr. Big, with a
suddenly mistaken sense of power over environmental transformations — participation in
which permitted him to feel himself as a manager of inventories of logistical multiplicity
which, at the most ignorant level, manifests itself as politically assured mandates and
political-world gambling = gamboling = ideological warfare = national sovereignties =
morally rationalizing public = body politic = individual nations as United Nations.
1024.24 Stress-producing metaphysical gas stretches and strains nature to yield into
social-evolution conformations such as the gas-filled plastic tube of Universe. There is an a
priori universal law in the controlled complexity that tolerates man’s pressurized nonsense,
as nature permits each day’s seemingly new Universe of semifamiliarities, semiwonders, and
semimystery, what humans might think of as history unfolding on this little planet. There is
the Game of Cosmic History, in which Universe goes on approximately unaware of human
nonsense while accommodating its omnilocal game- playing. Flies have their game.
Mosquitoes have their game. Microbes have their game. Lion cubs have their game. Whatever
games they may be playing, positive or negative, realistic or make-believe, all the games are
fail-safe, alternate circuits, omniconsequential to eternally regenerative Universe integrity. It’s
all permitted. It all belongs.
1024.25 Only humans play “Deceive yourself and you can fool the world”; or “I know what it’s
all about”; or “Life is just chemistry”; and “We humans invented and are running the world.”
Dogs play “Fetch it” to please their masters, not to deceive themselves. The most affectionate
of dogs do not play “Burial of our dead”__”Chemistry is for real.” Only humans play the game
of game of masks and monuments. Fictional history. Historical architecture. Crabs walk
sideways; but only human society keeps its eyes on the past as it backs into its future.
Madison Avenue aesthetics and ethics. Comic strips and cartoons … truth emergent, laughing
at self-deception … momentary, fleeting glimpses of the glory, inadvertently revealed through
faithful accuracy of observation — lucid conceptioning — spoken of as the music of the stars,
inadequate to the mystery of integrity …
===
Kirby
hi walt,
i really don’t understand what you are saying. it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with what i am saying. you probably see my comments the same way.
i am really trying my best to explain myself and to understand your understanding, but it still eludes me.
meanwhile, we, and the group we dialogue in, have some sort of commonality in our understanding that we are not able to converge in on. maybe that’s the way it has to be. i don’t know. i thought for sure we could home in deeper on the ‘commonality’.
it seems to me that my view is pretty easy to express whether or not anyone else wants to ‘buy in’ or not is another question. i feel convinced that if i ever had the chance to meet emerson, we would understand one another’s world view all the way down to the bottom.
he starts with ‘dynamics’ and that’s where i start. our experience is ‘dynamic’. this is about ‘feelings’, feelings of acceleration, feelings of relative movement, feelings of warmth and cool, feelings of lightness and darkness, feelings of touch/pressure and feelings of compression and expansion (as in breathing). i am aware of all of this before i ever start thinking of ‘who it is’ that is experiencing this and ‘the nature of who it is’ that is experiencing this. experience seems to me to come before thought. i know that others have understood their experience this way (e.g. i believe that giambattista vico did).
if i am on my motorcycle, i feel the air turbulence, the turbulence orchestrates my behaviour (e.g. it is easier to ride in the ‘shelter’ of another vehicle. where there are several vehicles in the airflow, their are quiet spots and if you find them you tend to stay in them; i.e. the patterns of turbulence you are in organize your movements. these ‘holes’ in the turbulence organize my behaviour. i can’t see them. i do not deliberately move into them. on the contrary, when i am in them they are like a ring of turbulence that informs me when i am getting out of them. if i was in a sailboat in the calm eye of a hurricane, i would try to stay in the middle because i sure as hell would not want to pass through the ‘eye-wall’. its that kind of thing. the dynamics of space orchestrate individual and collective behaviour (all of the boats , if caught in the calm eye, would want to stay in there so you would have all of these boats sailing together who knows where. wherever the eye went.
ok, if you tell me that it is my mind that is directing me to stay inside the eye, that is my ‘intention’ to stay inside the eye, i will readily agree with you, … but i can’t say that my behaviour is intellect and intention directed. if the eye of the storm takes me to some island port called ‘vanuatu’ that i never knew existed and the hills surrounding the port damps the hurricane force winds so that i am able to drop anchor there, when i go ashore and people ask; “was it your intention to come here”, i will say; “no, it was my intention to keep my boat in balance with the turbulence i was included in and to stay upright and afloat, and it just happened that i arrived here. i had no idea where i was going. my reference frame was the eye-wall of the hurricane and my behaviour was directed by not wanting to go through the eye-wall or be run over by the eye-wall.
now, you say; . “ I knew I had two minds before i heard the word minds, in the sense I knew i had two hands before i knew what the word hand was. and it appears that everyone has two minds in the same sense as my mother had two hands before i knew what the word hand was.”
fine, i am not arguing with the notion that we are aware of having a mind with two processors. i am just saying that our habit is to frame things in absolute space so that an outside observer monitoring my location on a system that is tracking a GPS transponder on my vessel would say; ‘he is headed for vanuatu’ as if this was my intention-directed behaviour. this is the way ‘it looks’. it could be a coincidence that i was riding along in the eye of the storm, but the fact could be that i was not following any charts (i was well beyond the region that i had charts for) but was merely trying to stay in the eye..
that is, as far as my mind was concerned, i was simply ‘trying to stay out of trouble’ (out of the turbulence) and i had no idea where this strategy was taking me. i was totally committed to my relation with the dynamic space i was situationally included in, in the continuing now. it was these dynamics that were orchestrating my behaviour. my mind was fully occupied by attuning to the dynamics i was included in, in order to sustain balance and stay afloat.
nevertheless i was going somewhere, not deliberately, but i was going somewhere and i knew not where. what was going on inside my skull was not directing where i was going. a butterfly flapping its wings on the other side of the world had as much influence on where i was going, as what was going on in my skull.
you know what, i bet that’s how a lot of soldiers found themselves in iraq and afghanistan, they were trying to steer clear of a difficult job market and steer clear of trouble with the police and slotting into the ‘eye of the storm’, thanks to the army recruiter, they were drifting they knew not where (iraq may have surfaced after they joined the army).
these resonant zones orchestrate our individual and collective behaviour. this is relative to the real world of our experience, … and it has little to do with our mind; i.e. our mind is orienting to ‘clouds on the horizon’ while all the while we are being taken somewhere else that we have not even thought about going. he may find a wife there and raise a family.
now, i can’t fit that into a model of man that sees him as ‘a local system with his own locally originating, intellect and intention-directed behaviour’. in fact, the mind really hasn’t got a grip on our behaviour in this situation. we have our hand firmly on the tiller as we are drifting onto the reef as we orient to staying out of trouble as far as what is visible to us (the eye-wall clouds) goes.
what the mind does is not relevant to our behaviour in this case (we are using it for shadow-boxing). can you see this? because i want to know if i am nuts or what. .
i would like to stop right here because this to me says that our behaviour is orchestrated by the dynamics of the space we are included in, and that this extrinsic influence trumps our notional intrinsic, locally originating intellect-and-intention-directed behaviour and i would like to know if you agree with that, or what comments you might have.
ted
hi kirby,
re synergetics.
i seems as if i’ve ended up putting in even more and longer quotes from bucky in my response to your comments;
bucky comes up with many things that depart from the mainstream western worldview that are common to our ‘discussion group’. for example in his 1024.22, he suggests that ‘chaos’ and ‘turbulence’ are seen by us as ‘disordered’ because we are unable to ‘sort out the order’ but that everything in nature is ‘in order’ and ‘as it should be’. “Physicists invent nothing. Chemists invent nothing.”
we tend to say that the farmer produces the foodcrop which implies that man is the causal agent and the harvest is the result that he has caused. this is backwards. man observed that plants grow and produce edible grain or fruit, and this interesting and valuable dynamic in nature is what induces transformation in man’s behaviour. he is animated from the outside inward; i.e. the dynamics of space (the realization that plants grow and produce food) orchestrate his (man’s) behaviour.
only when we mentally model man as the ‘first cause’ starting point for ‘his’ behaviour do we get this action ‘backwards’ and start believing the man produced the harvest.. this is euclidian thinking and bucky directly attacks euclidian thinking.
his refuting of “Life is just chemistry” is a refuting of common practice in our culture of assuming that systems can be local and have their own locally originating internally-directed behaviour. bucky says that there are extrinsic-intrinsic dynamics going on here; e.g.
1. the ‘hard’ self-other, organism-environment split is repealed.
this is a big departure from mainstream thinking (bucky says “Universe does not have any pollution”) since the overall system is continually regenerative. therefore the mainstream notion that ‘man is polluting’ imputes power to man that he does not have. bucky says that men can learn something of what the Universe’s rearrangement schemes may be and what man calls pollution is not a causal act on the part of man but getting out of whack with nature’s rearranging schemes. therefore, what is needed is to get in attunement rather than to believe that ‘we caused it’ and thus seek to ‘repair the damage’. bucky would clearly mock the notion of anthropogenic global warming (‘man is causing it’) and the folly of believing that ‘can can undo it’ as in the “UN climate chief urges governments to take the next essential step in the battle against climate change” (Aug 6, 2010)
this is a huge departure from mainstream scientific thinking and it is fully in agreement with my own explorations and understandings; i.e. bucky further says;
1075.23 In respect to individual humans total energy occurs as a complex of local variables of systematically cooperative, convergent-divergent, complementary-reciprocal, intertransformation patternings of uniquely differentiable local system aspects, accountable by intellect in locally varying magnitudes of concentration. The modulations are selectable, predictable, and governable by intellect to the extent that superficial acceleration permits.
2. life is not ‘local’ as in a chemical process (a local system with its own locally originating behaviour) but involves extrinsic-intrinsic reciprocal compression.
this is another huge departure from mainstream thinking. biology and its gatekeepers insist that ‘life’ is a ‘local process’ that inhabits certain geometric forms and not others, hence the animate/inanimate world split. as bucky says;
Furthermore, today’s hyperspecialization in socioeconomic functioning has come to preclude important popular philosophic considerations of the synergetic significance of, for instance, such historically important events as the discovery within the general region of experimental inquiry known as virology that the as-yet popularly assumed validity of the concepts of animate and inanimate phenomena have been experimentally invalidated. Atoms and crystal complexes of atoms were held to be obviously inanimate; the protoplasmic cells of biological phenomena were held to be obviously animate. It was deemed to be common sense that warm-blooded, moist, and soft-skinned humans were clearly not to be confused with hard, cold granite or steel objects. A clear-cut threshold between animate and inanimate was therefore assumed to exist as a fundamental dichotomy of all physical phenomena. This seemingly placed life exclusively within the bounds of the physical.
The supposed location of the threshold between animate and inanimate was methodically narrowed down by experimental science until it was confined specifically within the domain of virology. Virologists have been too busy, for instance, with their DNA-RNA genetic code isolatings, to find time to see the synergetic significance to society of the fact that they have found that no physical threshold does in fact exist between animate and inanimate. The possibility of its existence vanished because the supposedly unique physical qualities of both animate and inanimate have persisted right across yesterday’s supposed threshold in both directions to permeate one another’s-previously perceived to be exclusive-domains.
Subsequently, what was animate has become foggier and foggier, and what is inanimate clearer and clearer. All organisms consist physically and in entirety of inherently inanimate atoms. The inanimate alone is not only omnipresent but is alone experimentally demonstrable. Belated news of the elimination of this threshold must be interpreted to mean that whatever life may be, it has not been isolated and thereby identified as residual in the biological cell, as had been supposed by the false assumption that there was a separate physical phenomenon called animate within which life existed. No life per se has been isolated. The threshold between animate and inanimate has vanished. Those chemists who are preoccupied in synthesizing the particular atomically structured molecules identified as the prime constituents of humanly employed organisms will, even if they are chemically successful, be as remote from creating life as are automobile manufacturers from creating the human drivers of their automobiles.
Only the physical connections and development complexes of distinctly “nonlife” atoms into molecules, into cells, into animals, has been and will be discovered. The genetic coding of the design controls of organic systems offers no more explanation of life than did the specifications of the designs of the telephone system’s apparatus and operation explain the nature of the life that communicates weightlessly to life over the only physically ponderable telephone system. Whatever else life may be, we know it is weightless. At the moment of death, no weight is lost. All the chemicals, including the chemist’s life ingredients, are present, but life has vanished. The physical is inherently entropic, giving off energy in ever more disorderly ways. The metaphysical is antientropic, methodically marshalling energy. Life is antientropic. It is spontaneously inquisitive. It sorts out and endeavors to understand.”
now, bucky’s language game is pretty complicated everywhere one goes in his Synergetics text. and this is where myself and bucky would part ways BUT NOT TO BE DISMISSED IS THIS AGREEMENT ON A HUGE DEPARTURE FROM MAINSTREAM POPULAR UNDERSTANDING (WORLDVIEW) AND MAINSTREAM SCIENTIFIC VIEWS.
ok, i would point to this important common view in synergetics and in what some of us were calling ‘inclusionality’ that there is no such thing as a ‘local system with its own behaviour’. such a notion depends on euclidian space and these formless points and everything that bucky quite rightly rejects as being mathematically correct but which are unmappable to the dynamics of our living space (Universe) as we experience them.
bucky further remarks that our society continues to shape our behaviours on the basis of scientific understanding and that science is not bothering to correct the falsities that science has and continues to infuse into our minds; i.e. bucky says; (and here i have highlighted in bold a contention that, in my view, requires elaboration else it will bury and important understanding);
The overconcentration on details of hyperspecialization has also been responsible for the lack of recognition by science of its inherently mandatory responsibility to reorient all our educational curricula because of the synergetically disclosed, but popularly uncomprehended, significance of the 1956 Nobel Prize-winning discovery in physics of the experimental invalidation of the concept of “parity” by which science previously had misassumed that positive-negative complementations consisted exclusively of mirror-imaged behaviors of physical phenomena.
Science’s self-assumed responsibility has been self-limited to disclosure to society only of the separate, supposedly physical (because separately weighable) atomic component isolations data. Synergetic integrity would require the scientists to announce that in reality what had been identified heretofore as physical is entirely metaphysical-because synergetically weightless. Metaphysical has been science’s designation for all weightless phenomena such as thought. But science has made no experimental finding of any phenomena that can be described as a solid, or as continuous, or as a straight surface plane, or as a straight line, or as infinite anything. We are now synergetically forced to conclude that all phenomena are metaphysical; wherefore, as many have long suspected-like it or not-life is but a dream.
Science has found no up or down directions of Universe, yet scientists are personally so ill-coordinated that they all still personally and sensorially see “solids” going up or down-as, for instance, they see the Sun “going down.” Sensorially disconnected from their theoretically evolved information, scientists discern no need on their part to suggest any educational reforms to correct the misconceiving that science has tolerated for half a millennium.
Society depends upon its scientists for just such educational reform guidance. Where else might society turn for advice? Unguided by science, society is allowed to go right on filling its childrens’ brain banks with large inventories of competence-devastating misinformation. In order to emerge from its massive ignorance, society will probably have to rely exclusively upon its individuals’ own minds to survey the pertinent experimental data-as do all great scientist-artists. This, in effect, is what the intuition of world-around youth is beginning to do. Mind can see that reality is evoluting into weightless metaphysics. The wellspring of reality is the family of weightless generalized principles.
It is essential to release humanity from the false fixations of yesterday, which seem now to bind it to a rationale of action leading only to extinction.
The youth of humanity all around our planet are intuitively revolting from all sovereignties and political ideologies. The youth of Earth are moving intuitively toward an utterly classless, raceless, omnicooperative, omniworld humanity. Children freed of the ignorantly founded educational traditions and exposed only to their spontaneously summoned, computer-stored and -distributed outflow of reliable-opinion-purged, experimentally verified data, shall indeed lead society to its happy egress from all misinformedly conceived, fearfully and legally imposed, and physically enforced customs of yesterday. They can lead all humanity into omnisuccessful survival as well as entrance into an utterly new era of human experience in an as-yet and ever-will-be fundamentally mysterious Universe.
ok, once again, bucky’s language game is pretty different from my own here, but i agree with almost everything he is saying. most of it follows from rejecting the notion of a ‘local system with its own locally originating behaviour’ (western man’s euclidian model of himself) and the resultant ‘healing’ of the split between the ‘animate’ and ‘inanimate’ worlds (a healing in our minds or mental models, to be sure, since it has never existed in nature).
but let’s stop and take a look at bucky’s conjecture that;
as many have long suspected-like it or not-life is but a dream
i see no grounds for such a statement. it doesn’t make sense. schroedinger said that ‘material form’ was ‘schaumkommen’ or ‘appearances’, but that does not equate to ‘life is but a dream’.
this is perhaps the time to bring up the difference between ‘where bucky seems to be coming from’ and where i am coming from. we are trying to give the answer to some question, what is that question, in bucky’s case and in my case?
bucky’s question seems to be; ‘there is something wrong with geometry/mathematics as it is being taught (it doesn’t map to reality), what is it and what are the implications’?
my question has been, ‘there is something wrong with ‘social organization’ as it is being practiced (it doesn’t map to nature), what is it and what are the implications’?
i think it is reasonable to assume that explorations into these questions should bring out a lot of finding that are ‘in common’, but it is also reasonable to assume that there may be some difference in findings, as well.
ok, such explorations turn up, in both cases, that the notion of a ‘local system with its own locally originating behaviour’ is idealization that does not map into our experiencing of our living space dynamics. intuitively, there is no way to separate the dynamic of the habitat from the dynamics of the inhabitants (these dynamics are relative or reciprocal/complements of one another).
both orientations of exploration turn up the fact that there is organizing influence that is weightless. while bucky goes straight to ‘metaphysics’ here, i go to ‘field/flow’. this is likely due to bucky’s orientation to geometric structure and my orientation to ‘fluid-dynamics’ as in ‘wildgeese’, ‘sailboating’ etc. e.g. see http://www.goodshare.org/fluiddynamicworldview.pdf )
in my view, ‘field’ precedes geometry (structural patterns). bucky’s geometry is ‘being’ while fluid-dynamics is ‘continual becoming’ and as emerson says, the fixed forms are like the ‘pitch of the cataract’ implying ‘being’ where the being is an illusion forming from continual becoming (the flow of water).
this was schroedinger’s point as well; i.e. THE WORLD OF OUR VISUAL OBSERVATIONS IS “SCHAUMKOMMEN” (APPEARANCES) but this does not mean, as bucky suggests, that ‘life is but a dream’, it is only going so far as to say that the world seen in terms of visual forms and their dynamics is ‘illusion’ or ‘Maya’ (a word we can find in Schroedinger’s writing but not in Bucky’s). in addition to visual sensing, we also have at our disposal ‘inertial sensing’ (we sense acceleration/gravity). inertial sensing is relative to the gravity field which means that it is relative to all of the mass in the universe (Mach’s principle);
“In writing his doctoral thesis (1930) young Skinner found a way of applying the Machian point of view to the clarification of such concepts as the “reflex” of intact organisms, considering this as basic in psychology as, say, mass is in physics. As Skinner wrote recently, he was “following a strictly Machian line, in which behaviour was analyzed as a subject in its own right as a function of environmental variables without reference to either mind or the nervous system.” http://web.mit.edu/sts/pubs/pdfs/MIT_STS_WorkingPaper_4_Holton.pdf
[[i don’t believe skinner ‘got it right’ so i am not advocating his work, only the starting premise which i believe is sound]]
i think you would probably agree that by dissolving the barrier between the animate and inanimate world, we open the way to exploring human behaviour and/or any behaviour in terms of seeing space-time-energy dynamics as more fundamental than ‘mind’, since ‘organization’ being basic/foundational would be ‘upstream’ from ‘mind’.
i am beginning to think that this is where the difference lies and where we would have to explore together in order to understand our different views which meanwhile have so much in common; i.e. do we come in through the door of geometry (structure) or do we come in through the door or behaviour (flow)?
there are important differences in worldview that follow from these two entrées to inquiry.
ted
Hi Ted —
I’m delighted that we’re finding “life is but a dream” is a terminus (term, terminal, cross-roads).
That’s a fine meme to bookmark for future reference.
When I encounter that phrase, beyond the famous nursery rhyme I think of Roz Savage, whom
I’ve met glancingly on a couple of occasions (enough to pick up some of her spin). She’s
living her dream fully, by row row rowing her boat solo across great oceans… (where now?)
http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2009/10/roz-savage.html
Then I Googled up William Colby’s death scene, which one may take literally. “Slipped out of his
canoe…” (heart attack?). Perhaps this was on my mind because there’s a new Bob Woodward
book out, which takes me back to ‘Veil’ and one of my “cut ‘n paste collages”… (later, I got into
“photographed tableaus”). Maybe remind me sometime…?
Switching gears to the Wittgenstein thread, here is best the critique of a “noun sense” i.e. some
superstitious belief that “meanings” are right in front of one, as “meant things” (“my thoughts:
here they are!” thinks the confused philosopher).
In ‘Philosophical Investigations’, the name->object theory of meaning comes into question,
which is bewildering to many readers, as old skool internalized-polarized camps, the
Nominalists and the Platonists (“atheists” and “true believers” alike), buy into these premises
which Wittgenstein questions. That’s why some categorize him outside western philosophy
at this point (beyond the pale). Bertrand Russell had a hard time following.
“This is a pawn in chess” says the narrator. Yes, there’s an object here. But the meaning is
in the moves, the playing, the rules (all of which concepts, like “pawn”, will be revealed
operationally, through usage patterns, triggering gestalt switches in some, moments of
“aha!” or “eureka!”)…. and beyond that, the situation / disposition of chess itself within a
wider (rounder) culture. It’s a game. Isn’t “game theory” deadly serious though? Like
“economics” (which we compete with)? Is chess a “war game”? What do the Russians say?
http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2008/05/other-russia.html
What does “Aristotle” mean, or “Euclid”? You’ll not know right away, when you swim in
Ted Lumley’s namespace (another “think tank”). Just flashing on some portrait in
Wikipedia ain’t “the meaning”.
Do we know what these guys looked like? Bourbaki? (fictitious mathematician). The Turk?
(famous chess player).
In Fuller’s writing, Euclidean geometry is cast opposite a more discrete Democritus style
geometry, more about atoms that don’t touch one another. Continua have vanished, “perfect
solids” are nowhere to be found. That’s an affront to much of western metaphysics, which
is all about continua and continuousness, utterly non-atomic fabrics. Along this ancient
polarity, Synergetics represents a tilt toward the digital, away from the analog. That tilt, or
spin, hits the note “non-Euclidean”.
The notion that space is “three dimensional” also comes in for investigation. The corner of a
room in a cubic hut becomes the Euclidean anchor for space. Why not a tetrahedral tepee or
arrowhead? Perpendiculars live on, but have less status as the basis for the entire religion (the
orthodox religion, the normal way of thinking). He comes up with 4D for conceptual space,
the world of volume (the only one we know — flatland being a figment thereof). Most readers
disconnect because not trained to have multiple namespaces going. If you’re clinging to a
firmament, then challenging basic certainties just has to be a waste of time, because “you’ll
never get everyone to agree with you” (as if the Tower of Babel were a realistic structure for
anyone to attempt — yet they invariably do, like homing pigeons, hell bent on “world
domination” as we geeks say in spoof (the paradigm goal of Dr. Evil, who dreams of a whole
world bowing down to his moral structure, his God, his Science)).
A namespace is a situation, and rather than thinking “I know my way about” I need to pay
attention and learn a new way. Just because we use a lot of the same words… why should that
lull one into complacency?
We go to sleep then, thinking we “already know” because we’ve heard those words so many
times before.
“I know this story” is what the structural thinker says to himself, looking for a match. The
situations seem to fall into place, as puzzle pieces, with anomalies set aside. So when Walt
talks about “the brain”, I don’t pretend to already know, just because I flash on some textbook
anatomy pictures or see one floating in a jar… or watch Pinky and The Brain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li5nMsXg1Lk (reminds me of Walt’s writing)
From Norman O. Brown I got the reinforced message of two ways to think: literally and
symbolically (as they say).
Some religious wanna anchor their meanings to a “firmament”, meaning a layer of certainty
that’s unassailable, where God or some Holy Grail is secure in Plato’s heaven, amen.
That’s all symbolic language though. Like, what firmament? What were you standing on again?
Karen Armstrong, scholar of western religions, makes this same distinction: the fundamentalist
is a literalist, needs Israel to be literal chunk of Earth, as if Samsara were a city, or Nirvana.
The fundamentalist needs dinosaurs to not mess up a literal timelines that stretches back
to Genesis and the Garden of Eden.
How literal is Fuller’s ‘Critical Path’ then — another genesis story? I’d say ‘Grunch of Giants’
inherited the ‘realism’ while ‘Tetrascroll’ inherited ‘the myth’. That’s me at my chalkboard, in
front of some English class (like Michael Caine in ‘Inception’ trying to fake his fun accent, so
the UKers like me more, and the USAers grant me higher status).
The right brained or non-egoic way of thinking is more like free fall, which might be branded
original sin if you don’t embrace where you’re going. Fighting one’s eternal condition is hellish.
Ultimately it’s about whether you say “yes” to your time tunnel — attempting to translate
Nietzsche’s existential challenge. In Wittgenstein’s Tractatus, it’s the “whole world” (as a self,
as a scenario with a viewpoint) that waxes and wanes (in value, in meaning). In logic’s being
orthogonal to Fact World (Factory World, Machine World), he was not saying values are valueless
(the logical positivists got it backwards, as poetic license for their “coldly rational”? — still
investigating)
May the whole Earth be “a situation”? Where are the boundaries to one’s circumstances? The
periphery creates the center, the whorl, the vortex, the rabbit hole.
Then there’s the power source, the Sun, beaming terawatts in our direction… and the galaxy
amidst galaxies.
A structural thinker may appear so awkwardly uncoordinated (inappropriate) because the
programming is not from around here (like 3-CPO?) , and in holding to structure (out of
vanity? out of being hard-wired?), the civilization (urbane ego) fails (to adapt, to accommodate,
to cope). But then sometimes one is at the end of one’s rope. Humans have their limitations.
We should not count on them to do the impossible, even if, in Cirque du Soleil, they sometimes
seem to (miracles happen, but are hard to bank on). Humans are full of surprises — a feature,
not a bug.
I’m thinking of Aguirre, as played by Klaus Kinski, and also that opera house guy, Fitzgerald.
Both characters seem crazily out of touch with the local situation, paradigm Euros, heads
spilling over with future projections even before they showed up in this “New World” of
their dreams. On the other hand, director Herzog is in his element, blending illusions, weaving
dreams.
http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2007/01/fitzcarraldo-movie-review.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXk3tOEOS9U&feature=fvw
A pleasure,
Kirby
hi kirby,
quite some tours you take us on! enough to unground even the ungrounded situationalist.
while its true that the situationalist writer may elicit remarks such as; “I know this story” is what the structural thinker says to himself, looking for a match.”, since the approach of the structuralist is to read structure into the flow of every dream a dream-weaver may try to weave him into (he can’t lose because if he sees a hooked nose, he will make the whole body into a jew).
even if he is on a raft in a river and all are slain but him (looks like a good film, will have to get it), he can make sense of it all in terms that there is a god and god must be royally pissed off with something or other.
structuralists can’t lose. if i bump into a crowd of structuralists collecting clams on the beach, they will credit their intellect for directing them to all come there at the same time (low tide) and no credit to the tides and the clams (the situational dynamic they are included in). great minds think alike is what they will say.
as for rowing around the world, creating a reality of one’s own that one can pay homage to is a way (a curious way) of relatively attenuating the pigeon-holing pressures of our over-regulated modernity.
true, giving oneself up to situationality is not recommended if one lives in hollywood unless one can look right through the sun-bathing beauties on malibu beach and tune in to the fossil fragments amongst the quartz sand grains.
but lets give structuralism and situationalism a fair comparison. the ego doesn’t have to abandon ship in situationalism, as you so nicely wrote into the final paragraph of your ‘tower of babel’ piece, the ego can put a firm hand on the helm, it just has to avoid falling into the trap of believing that he is in charge of the behaviour of the vessel he is piloting.
like the conquistadores? on the river, our firm hand on the helm gives us control over our trajectory within the geometric framework of the river, in the manner of a GPS, but there are no buttons on the helm to control situational adornment and select bare-breasted maidens rabid for foreign lovers, or bare-chested warriors in a passion for adding shrunken heads to the pickets that encircle their encampment. the best river pilot who sets sail promptly at dawn, whose steady helmsmanship has never hit a sandbar, knows how to keep his focus whether the orchestrating influence is from the bare-breasted maidens or the bare-chested head-hunters. what escapes his superb management skill is the ‘flow’, … he has not levers or buttons to turn it off and to escape from it.
if he is the captain of the ship encircled by a crew of powerful and loyal hardies, he may see his commands propagate order and organization in the manner that a disturbed porcupine points his quills, but every system is situated within a suprasystem and if he fails to drop anchor for the bare-breasted maidens or fails to hoist anchor and raise sail for the bare-chested head-hunters, he may find the pointy tips of his instructions doing a ‘180’ and being directed back at him. we could call it system suprasystem impedance matching, … what’s propagated from a local source can range from being 100% transmitted into the suprasystem or be up to 100% reflected from the system/suprasystem interface, with a sign inversion.
that is the power that radiates outwards, sometimes undergoes total internal reflection and comes back to converge on its own source, having acquired considerable power amplification enroute.
that is the point i try to share in The Emperor’s New Shoes
it is a story about what can happen if we believe in those mathematical idealizations we call ‘vectors’ or ‘direction’ as in ‘locally originating force’. i.e. the notion of ‘force’ is ad hoc analytical backfill that derives from our attempt to understand ‘motion’. once we base our worldview on structure, we have to invent ‘force’ as a means of putting back in, the motion we removed when we looked into the flow and say; “I know this story” and “i’ve found a match”. once the match is found, the unfolding situational flow stops and movement begins in reverse, the man with the hooked nose becomes a jew who there’s a wealth of literature available on, from mein kampf to portnoy’s complaint, to interrupt the unfolding and drive the situation backwards.
ciaoforniao,
ted
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